Tax The 1 %

[Ron Party]

The S.F. Bay Area is well known for being at the forefront of progressivism, be it the protests in Berkeley in the 60's, the general strike in Oakland in the 40's, the Black Panther movement, etc.

Recently Oakland has made the news, for better or worse, with its Occupy Oakland contributions.

On Saturday, October 29, 2011, 1000 people made way to Ocean Beach in San Francisco to express themselves (my apology in advance for the oversized image, but the detail is phenomenal, with downtown S.F. and even the East Bay (Berkeley and Oakland hills) in the background):

 

[DonH50]

The opinions expressed by several people interviewed on the news show a clear lack of understanding in how the system (capitalism or socialism or anything in between) works, what corporations owe to whom, and a "you owe me" mentality I find rather repulsive. I worked my way through the last two years of high school, all of college, and ever since; never had time to protest the rich and the corporations for not giving me their money.

Great photo BTW.

 

[Jay_S]

Nice picture, reflecting a distinct point of view. The issue is whether the income tax system should be even more progressive. The top 1% are already being taxed. They have 20% of the total income and pay 38% of the total income tax. 51% of Americans pay no income tax. Source: Michael Boskin, Wall Street Journal, 11/3/2011.

 

[RogerD]

Nice picture, reflecting a distinct point of view. The issue is whether the income tax system should be even more progressive. The top 1% are already being taxed. They have 20% of the total income and pay 38% of the total income tax. 51% of Americans pay no income tax. Source: Michael Boskin, Wall Street Journal, 11/3/2011.

That is not true, nobody takes into account the annual confiscation inflation tax through the willful and planned policies of the Gov and Central Bank. The WSJ doesn't talk about that.

50 million people are on food stamps in this country with a weekly payment of 34.00 dollars.....that will buy one gallon of milk,a loaf of bread,a pound of bacon,a dozen eggs,1 jar of mayonnaise,1 tomato,1 pound of hamburger,1 head of lettuce,1 pound of butter.

No wonder the barbarians are at the gate.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

The opinions expressed by several people interviewed on the news show a clear lack of understanding in how the system (capitalism or socialism or anything in between) works, what corporations owe to whom, and a "you owe me" mentality I find rather repulsive. I worked my way through the last two years of high school, all of college, and ever since; never had time to protest the rich and the corporations for not giving me their money.

Great photo BTW.

I think it must depend on which news outlet you're watching for interviews. I've seen several interviews with OWS protesters and in every case, they were talking about returning democracy to the electorate, away from the influence of special interests. I haven't seen anyone ask for anything but a representative democracy that represents the people. With that said, I'm sure, however, that there are many in those protests looking for something more and if I went looking for them in the crowd I could make the movement look like nothing more than a bunch of spoiled brats with a sense of entitlement. I'm sure the reality is more complex than either of those insights.

Tim

 

[Whatmore]

I think it must depend on which news outlet you're watching for interviews. I've seen several interviews with OWS protesters and in every case, they were talking about returning democracy to the electorate, away from the influence of special interests. I haven't seen anyone ask for anything but a representative democracy that represents the people. With that said, I'm sure, however, that there are many in those protests looking for something more and if I went looking for them in the crowd I could make the movement look like nothing more than a bunch of spoiled brats with a sense of entitlement. I'm sure the reality is more complex than either of those insights.

Tim

Well said Tim.
Unfortunately, nuanced discussions don't sell copy

 

[audioguy]

For those of you who would like a more detailed understanding of the "Occupy" movement, this lady seems to clearly grasp it ---- but not exactly

 

[audioguy]

From thirty years ago: This is a young Phil Donahue interviewing Milton Friedman thirty years ago. Same discussion.

 

[RogerD]

I agree with some of this,but his main point about the decline of his standard of living is the bottom line.

 

[audioguy]

I agree with some of this,but his main point about the decline of his standard of living is the bottom line.

A bit more articulate than the lady in Atlanta!!! And I too agree with much/most of what he said. Printing money! Corporate Bailouts!

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

20% across the board for everyone..no deductions, no breaks, no loopholes...straight 20%. Thank you!

 

[jazdoc]

Some other images from Occupy Oakland from yesterday evening:

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Milton Friedman's old position is impossible to argue with. He's right. Nothing in the history of the world has created more prosperity than "free" markets. Why the quotes? Because they haven't been free. Not now. Not ever. Take away the counter balance of the regulation of those markets, remove the deliberate limitation of the "freedom" of those markets, and they will rapidly sink into oligarchy. Those who gain the power will limit the freedom of others from competing with them and taking that power away. It has never been any other way. That's why every democracy, or variation on the theme, in every developed nation on the planet, has an economic system that is a hybrid of free markets and government activism...some call it socialism. There are no exceptions, only degrees, and there never have been any that lasted. This ideal of a system in which governments stand back and let markets freely drive, regulate and heal themselves does not exist and has never existed. And it never will. Unfettered power will always lead to abuse, which will always lead to re-balance. And for a lot of reasons, we're due for an adjustment.

Hopefully it will look more like the Magna Carte than the French Revolution. Guillotines on Wall Street would be a bitch.

Tim

 

[RogerD]

Hopefully it will look more like the Magna Carte than the French Revolution. Guillotines on Wall Street would be a bitch.

Tim

I don't think they are listening,they never do. Let them eat cake.

 

[fas42]

Milton Friedman's old position is impossible to argue with. He's right. Nothing in the history of the world has created more prosperity than "free" markets. Why the quotes? Because they haven't been free. Not now. Not ever. Take away the counter balance of the regulation of those markets, remove the deliberate limitation of the "freedom" of those markets, and they will rapidly sink into oligarchy. Those who gain the power will limit the freedom of others from competing with them and taking that power away. It has never been any other way. That's why every democracy, or variation on the theme, in every developed nation on the planet, has an economic system that is a hybrid of free markets and government activism...some call it socialism. There are no exceptions, only degrees, and there never have been any that lasted. This ideal of a system in which governments stand back and let markets freely drive, regulate and heal themselves does not exist and has never existed. And it never will. Unfettered power will always lead to abuse, which will always lead to re-balance. And for a lot of reasons, we're due for an adjustment.

Hear, hear.

Down in Oz we are subject to just as much attempting to unsettle and maintain an unstable equilibrium, if not more, by corporate interests and society elected representatives. Check out the current kerfuffle with Qantas ...

Frank

 

[Ron Party]

Yep, jazdoc, there was a small group of self-proclaimed anarchists responsible for a lot, if not all, of the vandalism. Of course, posting that photo, without context, is, well ... I won't go there except to say that one sees what one wants to see and disregards the rest. The majority, and by that I mean in the high 90th of a percentile, was nonviolent.

 

[JackD201]

I've always wondered how in heck a system can work when the Central Banks and the Treasuries often have opposing stands given their different mandates. Two different and often opposing institutions that have the ability to individually influence interest rates.

 

[Whatmore]

Out of interest, why do central banks exist in free market capitalist economies?
Surely having an unelected entity with almost monopolist power is completely contrary to the spirit of capitalism.

 

[audioguy]

20% across the board for everyone..no deductions, no breaks, no loopholes...straight 20%. Thank you!

I don't know if the number is 20% but something like it. But them all of the bazillion IRS employees would be un-employed!

 

[LenWhite]

Isn't the underlying question regarding additional federal taxation, whether we want the federal government to continue growing even larger? Isn't the federal government already much too large, unaccountable, and ineffective? Short term additional taxes may help control the deficit, but long term this country needs to begin the long and painful process of moving away from unsustainable labor contracts, entitlements, and uncontrolled military spending. Many corporations argue the present U.S. corporate tax makes it difficult to compete internationally.

A case can be made to further regulate wall street because of the practices that led to the financial melt down and bailout. But many small business people feel federal and state regulations already make it extremely difficult to grow. Many are considering eliminating employees and becoming one person operations. That attitude certainly won't create the jobs this economy needs desperately.

Perhaps we need many more moderate representatives both at the state and federal level willing to talk and compromise for the good of the country rather ideology, or constituencies. Government agendas are now being driven largely by the extreme elements of both political parties.