TechDas Air Force One

[PeterA]

puroagave, I tried a handheld tachometer from Fieldpiece and could not get an accurate reading. It fluctuated as soon as I slightly changed the angle or the distance to the platter. So I fixed it on a tripod and it still showed inconsistent readings depending on distance and angle to the reflective tape strip on the side of the platter. I would not recommend this method for verifying speed.

Rockitman, your suggested method does not account for dynamic changes in the record grooves effecting stylus drag. That is why in my experience, the Timeline or even the KAB used during the playing of an actual piece of music seems more accurate. We are attempting to measure actual platter speed, not a stable test tone which is dependent on many variables as mentioned above.

 

[puroagave]

puroagave, I tried a handheld tachometer from Fieldpiece and could not get an accurate reading. It fluctuated as soon as I slightly changed the angle or the distance to the platter. So I fixed it on a tripod and it still showed inconsistent readings depending on distance and angle to the reflective tape strip on the side of the platter. I would not recommend this method for verifying speed.

Rockitman, your suggested method does not account for dynamic changes in the record grooves effecting stylus drag. That is why in my experience, the Timeline or even the KAB used during the playing of an actual piece of music seems more accurate. We are attempting to measure actual platter speed, not a stable test tone which is dependent on many variables as mentioned above.

Peter, I dont have the problem you described maybe its false reading reflections off your platter's rim. did you try putting a piece of tape on the inner grooves of the record and measuring that way?

 

[PeterA]

Rob, I don't think there are any reflections on my mat black platter side. I just got different readings of say 32.5 - 34 RPM depending on how far the device was away from the platter. With your reflective tape on the inner groove, do you then hold the device above the LP facing down toward the label? I might give this a try. The tachometer device has a readout of 0.000, so I figured it would be very accurate. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[rockitman]

I just ordered the monarch laser tach. I will report back in the speed thread.

 

[mep]

a hand held tach is way more accurate as its numeric with error less than 0.005%. whats the error rate of following a blinking light bouncing accross a wall with the naked eye

It depends if you have calibrated eyeballs or not. I personally own the KAB strobe and the light that goes with it. My speed is spot-on according to that. Since Technics claimed that you could mount up to 50 tonearms (if you had the room) on the SP-10 and have all of them playing at the same time and tracking at 15 grams each and it still wouldn't affect the speed of the table, I don't think I have to worry about stylus drag slowing down my rig.

 

[MylesBAstor]

It depends if you have calibrated eyeballs or not. I personally own the KAB strobe and the light that goes with it. My speed is spot-on according to that. Since Technics claimed that you could mount up to 50 tonearms (if you had the room) on the SP-10 and have all of them playing at the same time and tracking at 15 grams each and it still wouldn't affect the speed of the table, I don't think I have to worry about stylus drag slowing down my rig.

I have the KAB and the Digistrobo blows it away.

 

[garylkoh]

Is this the tool you are talking about ?

http://www.monarchinstrument.com/product.php?ID=24

Where would be the best place to aim the laser for a reading....on the record, on the platter side or on the record label itself ?

I have the cheaper LED one (only 36" range). I put a piece of reflective tape on top of an LP, and it measured 33.333 rpm.

 

[MylesBAstor]

I have the cheaper LED one (only 36" range). I put a piece of reflective tape on top of an LP, and it measured 33.333 rpm.

I took readings using the digistrobo using a piece of tape placed on the label area (the supplied disc that fits over the label) vs tape on the ring clamp. Both were the same in my hands.

 

[rockitman]

I have the cheaper LED one (only 36" range). I put a piece of reflective tape on top of an LP, and it measured 33.333 rpm.

Top of lp versus on the side of the platter...do you think they would measure th same ?

 

[mep]

Top of lp versus on the side of the platter...do you think they would measure th same ?

I don't see how one could be faster or slower than the other.

 

[garylkoh]

Top of lp versus on the side of the platter...do you think they would measure th same ?

On my Roksan Xerses, I found that they measured different. Could be that the outside of the platter need not be perfectly concentric? I didn't do the same experiment on the Air Force ONE.

 

[The Phantom]

It beg the question- Where is the air bearing tangential tonearm. It's all the range don't you know.

Although I have been aware of the thread started by Gary, I only recently saw the comments myself. So, at last, here is the official Western Hemisphere distributor signing on...!

So many comments, so little typing space. As for "AirBearing", I'd only add that the need for a second motor is debatable, and the belt tension vectors involved in a device with this much intertia will be so small as to be considered only as a theoritical discussion; i.e., don't worry about it for one minute. There's always something to debate, and we all have our favorite concepts, but believe me, this table has been WELL thought out. I've also spent the last 5 or 6 months living with one and getting very used to it. As I said in the interview, if I were to make a high-end table myself, and had large resources to pour into it, this would be the product I'd be aiming for..!

To "Gregadd" and his air-bearing tangential arm fascination, that's well and good. But it has a definite downside, and it's not entirely the rage, either. Cartridge energy cannot be so easily dissipated in an air-bearing arm, nor can the arm be properly grounded for maximum extension and solitity. I've studied the pros and cons of air-bearing arms, and for me - and with all due respect to the best designs out there - there is no free lunch in this stuff. A direct comparison between the best pivoted arms and air-bearing units will provide the answer, and except for that test, everything else is personal preference. Of course, there's nothing like a audiophile with an axe to grind to show pure stubborness, and the debates on these things can fly fast and furious. Which is why I tend to avoid them, and go about my business, trying to make the best analogue reproducers I can, and which, hopefully, will be seen and heard that way by customers and reviewers...

As for my "special" arm for the Air Force One, it is an extension of the current Supreme. It's to be called simply the "Elite" and will have an even more refined main pivot assembly, with styling cues to match the turntable. I am designing new internal wire, very much more costly to make, and will be licensed from Nordost. Unlike earllier arms, the Elite will be supplied with an output cable with similar characteristics to the internal wire.

I'm sure Mr. Nishikawa is as proud of his turntable design as I am of the Phantom series. The "Elite" should continue this tradition, and with the addition of being really matched to this remarkable turntabale. Together, I believe they make a most formidable pair. the price is not cheap, but I'm trying to strike a fair balance for an outstanding combination.

My thanks for all the threads and to Gary Koh for starting this thread. In addition to seeing one setup in Gary's Genesis room, I invite anyone going to CES to come visit us, as the official representative, in the Lamm exchibit room on 35-309 at the Venetian. - Happy trails, Bob Graham

 

[Gregadd]

Mr Graham welcome to WBF. IIRC you and I met before and briefly discussed the issue of anti-skating force.
I am not fascinated with air bearing -tangential arms. The best turntable I have herd to date is equipped with one. The best tonearm I ever owned was a pivotal arm with mechanical bearings. I am stubborn as hell but have no ax to grind.

On behalf of Steve and Amiir I invite you to come and discuss you tonearm design theories here at WBF. Is ee no reason any such discussions need to take the form of air bearing tangential vs pivotal mechanical bearing. Good luck at the show.

Your participation here could resemble that of Roger Sanders http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?2724-Compilation-of-WBF-Discussions-with-Roger-Sanders

 

[MylesBAstor]

Although I have been aware of the thread started by Gary, I only recently saw the comments myself. So, at last, here is the official Western Hemisphere distributor signing on...!

So many comments, so little typing space. As for "AirBearing", I'd only add that the need for a second motor is debatable, and the belt tension vectors involved in a device with this much intertia will be so small as to be considered only as a theoritical discussion; i.e., don't worry about it for one minute. There's always something to debate, and we all have our favorite concepts, but believe me, this table has been WELL thought out. I've also spent the last 5 or 6 months living with one and getting very used to it. As I said in the interview, if I were to make a high-end table myself, and had large resources to pour into it, this would be the product I'd be aiming for..!

To "Gregadd" and his air-bearing tangential arm fascination, that's well and good. But it has a definite downside, and it's not entirely the rage, either. Cartridge energy cannot be so easily dissipated in an air-bearing arm, nor can the arm be properly grounded for maximum extension and solitity. I've studied the pros and cons of air-bearing arms, and for me - and with all due respect to the best designs out there - there is no free lunch in this stuff. A direct comparison between the best pivoted arms and air-bearing units will provide the answer, and except for that test, everything else is personal preference. Of course, there's nothing like a audiophile with an axe to grind to show pure stubborness, and the debates on these things can fly fast and furious. Which is why I tend to avoid them, and go about my business, trying to make the best analogue reproducers I can, and which, hopefully, will be seen and heard that way by customers and reviewers...

As for my "special" arm for the Air Force One, it is an extension of the current Supreme. It's to be called simply the "Elite" and will have an even more refined main pivot assembly, with styling cues to match the turntable. I am designing new internal wire, very much more costly to make, and will be licensed from Nordost. Unlike earllier arms, the Elite will be supplied with an output cable with similar characteristics to the internal wire.

I'm sure Mr. Nishikawa is as proud of his turntable design as I am of the Phantom series. The "Elite" should continue this tradition, and with the addition of being really matched to this remarkable turntabale. Together, I believe they make a most formidable pair. the price is not cheap, but I'm trying to strike a fair balance for an outstanding combination.

My thanks for all the threads and to Gary Koh for starting this thread. In addition to seeing one setup in Gary's Genesis room, I invite anyone going to CES to come visit us, as the official representative, in the Lamm exchibit room on 35-309 at the Venetian. - Happy trails, Bob Graham

Welcome Bob! Good to see you here/hear

Oh and there's few better or more qualified to discuss the topic of tables, arms and cartridge than Bob. I'd say he's forgotten more than most people know!

Years ago, had one of Bob's arms in for review and it was ear opening. Plus there's no arm easier to mount and align a cartridge in than Bob's arms. It takes basically all of five minutes! Beat that!

 

[rockitman]

Will the Elite be available for other tables ? More to the point, is the Elite going to replace the Supreme as the statement tonearm from Graham ?

 

[Sound Affair]

Although I have been aware of the thread started by Gary, I only recently saw the comments myself. So, at last, here is the official Western Hemisphere distributor signing on...!

So many comments, so little typing space. As for "AirBearing", I'd only add that the need for a second motor is debatable, and the belt tension vectors involved in a device with this much intertia will be so small as to be considered only as a theoritical discussion; i.e., don't worry about it for one minute. There's always something to debate, and we all have our favorite concepts, but believe me, this table has been WELL thought out. I've also spent the last 5 or 6 months living with one and getting very used to it. As I said in the interview, if I were to make a high-end table myself, and had large resources to pour into it, this would be the product I'd be aiming for..!

To "Gregadd" and his air-bearing tangential arm fascination, that's well and good. But it has a definite downside, and it's not entirely the rage, either. Cartridge energy cannot be so easily dissipated in an air-bearing arm, nor can the arm be properly grounded for maximum extension and solitity. I've studied the pros and cons of air-bearing arms, and for me - and with all due respect to the best designs out there - there is no free lunch in this stuff. A direct comparison between the best pivoted arms and air-bearing units will provide the answer, and except for that test, everything else is personal preference. Of course, there's nothing like a audiophile with an axe to grind to show pure stubborness, and the debates on these things can fly fast and furious. Which is why I tend to avoid them, and go about my business, trying to make the best analogue reproducers I can, and which, hopefully, will be seen and heard that way by customers and reviewers...

As for my "special" arm for the Air Force One, it is an extension of the current Supreme. It's to be called simply the "Elite" and will have an even more refined main pivot assembly, with styling cues to match the turntable. I am designing new internal wire, very much more costly to make, and will be licensed from Nordost. Unlike earllier arms, the Elite will be supplied with an output cable with similar characteristics to the internal wire.

I'm sure Mr. Nishikawa is as proud of his turntable design as I am of the Phantom series. The "Elite" should continue this tradition, and with the addition of being really matched to this remarkable turntabale. Together, I believe they make a most formidable pair. the price is not cheap, but I'm trying to strike a fair balance for an outstanding combination.

My thanks for all the threads and to Gary Koh for starting this thread. In addition to seeing one setup in Gary's Genesis room, I invite anyone going to CES to come visit us, as the official representative, in the Lamm exchibit room on 35-309 at the Venetian. - Happy trails, Bob Graham

I too welcome you Mr Graham, one of the reasons i enjoy this site is it attracts leading experts and information can come straight from the horses mouth so to speak, i too would love to read your thoughts regarding the pros and cons of linear and pivot tonearm design.
You say you have lived with the TechDAS turntable for 6 months and i assume you have been thoroughly briefed on it's technologies. Gary has posted a cross sectional schematic of the table showing its various sytems http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?8522-The-Air-Force-and-the-Dragon-Mon-19th-Nov-2012 and have noticed Mr Nishikawa has installed a speed sensor directly under the platter, does the table in real time calculate the platter speed and adjust accordingly? I can't think of another turntable manufacturer that has implemented such technology and if it has been implemented properly will have put turntable speed issues to rest?

Jason

 

[steve williams]

Hi Bob

Indeed a warm hearted welcome on behalf of myself and Amir. I would second what Jason said about your comments going a longway here. Certainly, they would be well received by our members

 

[The Phantom]

This seems to be one active site and thread..! Good to be amongst friends, and although I don't have as much spare time as I might wish right now (CES, tonearm production, AF-1 marketing, and of course, sleep) I want to thank everyone for getting involved.

And to Gregadd, I did not mean that you, personally, have any axe to grind; merely that, as a group, audiophiles (myself included) sometimes hold very strong opinions about things, and occasionally our various axes do need sharpening with new ideas and/or rethinking of old ones.

To the quesiton of speed control; yes- the speed sensor is reading real-time; however, the air-bearing and large mass (over 50 pounds with the stainless steel top platter) ensures a high degree of stablity due to inertia. There is no "hunt and seek" variations that can sometimes, depending on design, affect light-weight platters or direct drive systems. With the belt removed, and a gentle push of the floating platter, it's going to be several tedious minutes before the platter finally settles to a stop.

As I stated, the Elite tonearm is an extension of the Supreme, not a replacement. It offers a more advanced (expensive) wiring system, and an even more elaborate pivot housing, but it does not diminish or replace the Supreme on existing turntable systems. As you might expect, a tonearm with more expensive components will be, obviously, more expensive to buy.

So for Supreme owners, I'd say don't worry about it - enjoy what many feel is the best arm they've heard. The Elite is simply a revised design intended to make the Air Force One a superior "Package" system. My goal is to be a good representaive for the best turntable I've ever encountered, and to supply a tonearm which I hope will take this combination to a new level of excellence in the high-end turntable/tonearm stakes. And now, Good night,all! I'm heading to bed for some needed rest..!! And hope to see you at CES...! - Bob

 

[Gregadd]

enjoy what many feel is the best arm they've heard.

Alas Bob I've never heard it. Maybe soon.

 

[rockitman]

As I stated, the Elite tonearm is an extension of the Supreme, not a replacement. It offers a more advanced (expensive) wiring system, and an even more elaborate pivot housing, but it does not diminish or replace the Supreme on existing turntable systems. As you might expect, a tonearm with more expensive components will be, obviously, more expensive to buy.

So for Supreme owners, I'd say don't worry about it - enjoy what many feel is the best arm they've heard. The Elite is simply a revised design intended to make the Air Force One a superior "Package" system. My goal is to be a good representaive for the best turntable I've ever encountered, and to suppy a tonearm which I hope will take this combination to a new level of excellence in the high-end turntable/tonearm stakes. And now, Good night,all! I'm heading to bed for some needed rest..!! And hope to see you at CES...! - Bob

Bob,

Welcome With regard to the elite upgrades, can one purchase this arm w/o the TechDas ? I love my Supreme 10", but am always looking to wring out the most fidelity I can. I use a Clearaudio Master Innovation table. Thanks in advance.