Comparing this table with the Air force 1 is akin to comparing a Bugatti with a Chevy.
Thales Simplicity review in Stereophile.
- Thread starter audioarcher
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Comparing this table with the Air force 1 is akin to comparing a Bugatti with a Chevy.
Well, I wish I knew japanese, but that's what they did in one of their most famous and respected magazines.
I'm going to find my copy and scan it, so maybe someone's able to translate.
alexandre
I'm going to find my copy and scan it, so maybe someone's able to translate.
alexandre
Here are some links to a German website that has some vinyl rips of various front ends. The first link is using the Simplicity, and the second an SME V. All other factors are were the same. The third link is to the whole library. Lots of interesting things to compare. The digital recorder used was the Nagra VI.
http://hifistatement.info/soundexamples/043/EAT_sim_ein-g.wav
http://hifistatement.info/soundexamples/044/EAT_sme_ein_g.wav
http://www.hifistatement.net/de/klangbibliothek
http://hifistatement.info/soundexamples/043/EAT_sim_ein-g.wav
http://hifistatement.info/soundexamples/044/EAT_sme_ein_g.wav
http://www.hifistatement.net/de/klangbibliothek
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I'll bet the Bugatti is in the shop more often!
Yeah, with a 1,000 hp the engine needs to be rebuilt every two months.
Depending on how much you drive it of course.
I'll bet the Bugatti is in the shop more often!
I haven't heard of any reliability problems with Bugatti (Or AF1 for that matter). You must be thinking of Ferrari...
Audio is our passion, gentlemen, but beyond the analogy to high end cars, I'm still not convinced such prices can be justified. If it can, then when is the first $100k tonearm going to be released, and are the apologists for such prices still going to be vocally supportive? IMHO, one shouldn't use lack of economies of scale, limited production and bespoke engineering as a justification for any pricetag. And did I not hear of some issues with the finishing of this tonearm? Shouldn't such an astronomic entry ticket be a guarantee of ABSOLUTE perfection? And unless the detailed pictures are misleading, the finish doesn't seem to be a quantum leap beyond what's currently available. Just find it a dead shame that in the ultra free trade world of 2013, the hifi sectors that are mainly thriving in relative terms, are the dead cheap sub $100/$500 DVD players/lcd tvs, and the ultra ultra high end where an in effect new market has been created.
spiritofmusic, would you like the ultra high end to go away and leave you with only dead cheap hifi to buy in the future? That's what you seem to be advocating.
I sell a pair of $360,000 loudspeakers, so I do feel that I'm being targeted when you write posts like the above.
I sell a pair of $360,000 loudspeakers, so I do feel that I'm being targeted when you write posts like the above.
Not sure what you're referencing regarding the finish of the Simplicity. Everything I've seen looks up to par with the best out there. . .have you seen a production version of this arm in person?
As for pricing, don't you own a SoundSmith Straingauge? If that's not an example of limited production pricing, I don't know what is. . .
Link to hi-res images: http://www.aaudioimports.com/HiResImages.asp?hProduct=240
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Not to mention that today's entry level high-end gear is better than ever. In fact in some cases, better than SOTA a few years ago.
It's also absurd to focus on a company's most expensive items. It's not any different than any other industry. The upper end products are where the testing and write offs for experimentation occur. Do you think a company could produce their more affordable products if they also had to account for R&D costs?
It's also absurd to focus on a company's most expensive items. It's not any different than any other industry. The upper end products are where the testing and write offs for experimentation occur. Do you think a company could produce their more affordable products if they also had to account for R&D costs?
It's not my intention to offend. Really . I've bought into the high end, so I'm as "guilty" as anyone . I may have got my (tonearm) wires crossed, I'm really struggling to find justification for the cost of the Vertere tonearm, my mistake on this thread, which is the Simplicity. Need to proof read my own replies a bit more !
What I'm trying to say is that in the case of the Vertere trickle down pricing is still at a level well above the top price of 90% of the high end tonearms out there. Also when prices of high end stuff can rise a quarter from show to shop, am I not able to comment on some slight insanity out there? From what I can gather Gary, you supply an extreme high end product which will have had unbelievable amounts of r&d put into it, with substantial material/shipping costs, and a lot of bang for buck. Maybe the Vertere does too. But I do strongly suspect that a lot of pricing in the ultra high end of all consumer products, cars, hifi, watches, handbags, designer clothes etc is based on seeing what's sustainable with high end customers and running with it. Nothing unethical in this. And it's a burgeoning market, esp in SE Asia. All power to the ultra high end. It's just a shame that the growth areas seem to be the dirt cheap, and the v.pricey. There's a big squeeze in the middle. And I'm in no way saying cheap is the way to go, I've spent in total $150k on my 2ch audio system. Just friendly discourse, i'll be less dismissive sounding on future replies
. I've bought into the high end, so I'm as "guilty" as anyone . I may have got my (tonearm) wires crossed, I'm really struggling to find justification for the cost of the Vertere tonearm, my mistake on this thread, which is the Simplicity. Need to proof read my own replies a bit more !What I'm trying to say is that in the case of the Vertere trickle down pricing is still at a level well above the top price of 90% of the high end tonearms out there. Also when prices of high end stuff can rise a quarter from show to shop, am I not able to comment on some slight insanity out there? From what I can gather Gary, you supply an extreme high end product which will have had unbelievable amounts of r&d put into it, with substantial material/shipping costs, and a lot of bang for buck. Maybe the Vertere does too. But I do strongly suspect that a lot of pricing in the ultra high end of all consumer products, cars, hifi, watches, handbags, designer clothes etc is based on seeing what's sustainable with high end customers and running with it. Nothing unethical in this. And it's a burgeoning market, esp in SE Asia. All power to the ultra high end. It's just a shame that the growth areas seem to be the dirt cheap, and the v.pricey. There's a big squeeze in the middle. And I'm in no way saying cheap is the way to go, I've spent in total $150k on my 2ch audio system. Just friendly discourse, i'll be less dismissive sounding on future replies
Thank you for the consideration of reply, spiritof music. I appreciate it. I'm sorry I got my panties in a bunch.
When I first heard from Touraj last CES how much his tonearm was going to cost, I had the same feeling. How can it cost so much? But stepping through the parts, what he had to do to get the tolerance at what he wanted, etc. It did start to add up. When I questioned why a particular component that's 5 times more expensive than an equivalent part - his answer was always that if he didn't make the more expensive part, how would he know what performance he would sacrifice going down to the cheaper part?
No doubt, once he makes the cheaper tonearm, he will then see how much further down the pricelist he can go.
When I first heard from Touraj last CES how much his tonearm was going to cost, I had the same feeling. How can it cost so much? But stepping through the parts, what he had to do to get the tolerance at what he wanted, etc. It did start to add up. When I questioned why a particular component that's 5 times more expensive than an equivalent part - his answer was always that if he didn't make the more expensive part, how would he know what performance he would sacrifice going down to the cheaper part?
No doubt, once he makes the cheaper tonearm, he will then see how much further down the pricelist he can go.
Hi Spirit,
Personally, I don't think there is a big squeeze in the middle. I think more than ever, the choices abound.
Personally, I don't think there is a big squeeze in the middle. I think more than ever, the choices abound.
For some reason this website did not say which TT was used for these files. After some investigation of some of their reviews I believe they were using a Brinkmann LaGrange in these tests.
Jack, I do agree the middle is doing ok actually. For the sake of argument one always has to "enhance" one's point. Audio is a bit marginalised in total in this mp3 age, I'm sure we'd agree. It just seems like there's a dirt cheap market of total disposability that's somewhat new esp. av, and the ultra ultra high end which is thriving in certain markets that didn't seem to be so prominent a few years ago. So in a restricted marketplace, both polar opposites are doing extraordinarily well, the middle has to fight a lot harder with music listening at home contracting as a lifestyle.
Don't want this to sound like an attack on Touraj, I met him in the mid 80s when I went on a bit of a Roksan buying glut, ending up with Xerxes 10 tt/TMS tt/Artemiz arm/Shiraz cart/Darius spkrs/Atessa cd/L1 and 1.5 amps. Always been impressed by his engineering credentials, even tho' his sound ultimately wasn't for me. Anyhow, as I said, wrong thread. But I support the high end, how else could I enjoy my music for 3hrs/day?
Don't want this to sound like an attack on Touraj, I met him in the mid 80s when I went on a bit of a Roksan buying glut, ending up with Xerxes 10 tt/TMS tt/Artemiz arm/Shiraz cart/Darius spkrs/Atessa cd/L1 and 1.5 amps. Always been impressed by his engineering credentials, even tho' his sound ultimately wasn't for me. Anyhow, as I said, wrong thread. But I support the high end, how else could I enjoy my music for 3hrs/day?
As you can tell from my user name - I bought and have owned a Thales Simplicity for about 2 yrs now.
I believe that Micha Huber (Thales owner/designer) will be putting a post on the Thales website over the Fremer review. I understand the arm that he had was defective - probably in the hands of the importer - and highly likely as the headshell bearings had been over tightened. They are meant to be left well alone from factory setting. The review was damned before it got going.
The only aspect i do agree with is the jig for cartridge alignment which is fiddly as the headshell in upside down and not fixed. The lines do obscure the cantilever and stylus making it either hit and miss or a very slow process to achieve correct set up. The Bob Graham jig is about 38 times better (and as an ex Phantom owner I speak with authority).
That said, once you have the Thales set up properly and the cartridge aligned the sound is quite exquisite. I went from an SME V, Ikeda IT407, Graham Phantom to the Thales and have never looked back. Sound wise, it is the finest arm I have ever used, owned or heard. I use an Ortofon A90, Ikeda 9TT and Koetsu Urushi Sky Blue.
Whilst there are positives in the Fremer review and I do agree with him over the cartridge jig, the review was flawed. If the arm was defective, how was it ever going to deliver what it is capable of?
As ever, go and listen to one and decide yourself.
I believe that Micha Huber (Thales owner/designer) will be putting a post on the Thales website over the Fremer review. I understand the arm that he had was defective - probably in the hands of the importer - and highly likely as the headshell bearings had been over tightened. They are meant to be left well alone from factory setting. The review was damned before it got going.
The only aspect i do agree with is the jig for cartridge alignment which is fiddly as the headshell in upside down and not fixed. The lines do obscure the cantilever and stylus making it either hit and miss or a very slow process to achieve correct set up. The Bob Graham jig is about 38 times better (and as an ex Phantom owner I speak with authority).
That said, once you have the Thales set up properly and the cartridge aligned the sound is quite exquisite. I went from an SME V, Ikeda IT407, Graham Phantom to the Thales and have never looked back. Sound wise, it is the finest arm I have ever used, owned or heard. I use an Ortofon A90, Ikeda 9TT and Koetsu Urushi Sky Blue.
Whilst there are positives in the Fremer review and I do agree with him over the cartridge jig, the review was flawed. If the arm was defective, how was it ever going to deliver what it is capable of?
As ever, go and listen to one and decide yourself.
Thanks for the update Simplicity. It did not make sense that the bearings would be that bad.
There have not been any posts from users in North America yet. Must not be that many here.
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