The Bass is the place!!
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Played Tea of Sahara yesterday after work. Those double bass notes was easy to hear.
Tried it on the stereo in the living room. Couldn't quite get them. Or maybe just. Thanks for the song by the way, its in my playlist.
Corvus Corax's "O Varium Fortune" has solid bass organ down to 22 Hz as well as impressive percussion.
The same track is worth watching live. Look for the percussion and the soprano:
"Forever Yours" by Nightwish goes down to 31 Hz. This is an especially good bass test, all of the bass notes should be equally loud and distinct.
"Eclipse" (Pink Floyd cover by Robert Berry) goes down to 18 Hz.
The same track is worth watching live. Look for the percussion and the soprano:
"Forever Yours" by Nightwish goes down to 31 Hz. This is an especially good bass test, all of the bass notes should be equally loud and distinct.
"Eclipse" (Pink Floyd cover by Robert Berry) goes down to 18 Hz.
And finally, the system to beat all systems:
Try to imagine an 8.3 gigawatt amplifier / loudspeaker system with 0% distortion and response down to DC.
Now stand over 3 miles away...
To listen to this at realistic levels, you will need a system capable of about 120 dB SPL at 25 Hz and maintaining at least 115 db down to 5 Hz or below.
Note that there is absolutely no clipping or overloading - if you have a capable system, what you hear is what was heard live.
There's also a 24/96 surround (4.0) version available for download at the site linked below, as well as some notes on the recording process.
http://www.digido.com/articles-and-demos12/13-bob-katz/13-we-have-lift-off.html\
Some additional notes from a post by Bob on the Pro Audio list:
" ... The gain was pre-calculated and calibrated BEFORE the recording using scientific calculations of the known power of the launch and the SPL loss at this distance. Thanks largely to Dick Pierce and others of this list I was able to set the preamplifier gain this well before the launch. The result: The highest peak (at 8 Hz) landed at exactly -1 dBFS peak! (No second takes allowed). No preamplifier or microphone went into overload; this is a very serious and impacting surround recording that comes as close as possible to the real experience, including the rarely-heard cavitation noises that can only be heard at less than 5 mile distance. ... " - Bob Katz
Try to imagine an 8.3 gigawatt amplifier / loudspeaker system with 0% distortion and response down to DC.
Now stand over 3 miles away...
To listen to this at realistic levels, you will need a system capable of about 120 dB SPL at 25 Hz and maintaining at least 115 db down to 5 Hz or below.
Note that there is absolutely no clipping or overloading - if you have a capable system, what you hear is what was heard live.
There's also a 24/96 surround (4.0) version available for download at the site linked below, as well as some notes on the recording process.
http://www.digido.com/articles-and-demos12/13-bob-katz/13-we-have-lift-off.html\
Some additional notes from a post by Bob on the Pro Audio list:
" ... The gain was pre-calculated and calibrated BEFORE the recording using scientific calculations of the known power of the launch and the SPL loss at this distance. Thanks largely to Dick Pierce and others of this list I was able to set the preamplifier gain this well before the launch. The result: The highest peak (at 8 Hz) landed at exactly -1 dBFS peak! (No second takes allowed). No preamplifier or microphone went into overload; this is a very serious and impacting surround recording that comes as close as possible to the real experience, including the rarely-heard cavitation noises that can only be heard at less than 5 mile distance. ... " - Bob Katz
All fascinating, to be sure, but how does it bear on real music? I'm not much for listening to pipe organ recordings (though the instruments themselves fascinate me) and apart from the occasional missile launch, what are we trying to accomplish? Does the ability to reproduce 18 hz at realistic launch levels translate into hearing the recording of a double bass in a club that sounds like a real double bass?
What is the frequency range of the kick drum, from impact to skin sound and associated harmonics? Not dissing you Don, I used to like to scare the pants off visitors with the T-Rex sounds of Jurrasic Park over a large projection system with lot's of heavy-duty gear (and remember attending the original roadshows of Earthquake, the Movie-forgot the name of the brand CV used for marketing after that)- but, apart from some deep synth sounds on some of the prog rock I listen to, I'm not sure how many natural instruments go down really deep. (Bosendorfer with extended lower register is what, a little below 20 hz and that's not all that common). Most music and "thwack" is a bit higher, I think, no? Is the thinking that if it can do a Saturn V, it can easily handle a synth, drum or double bass?
What is the frequency range of the kick drum, from impact to skin sound and associated harmonics? Not dissing you Don, I used to like to scare the pants off visitors with the T-Rex sounds of Jurrasic Park over a large projection system with lot's of heavy-duty gear (and remember attending the original roadshows of Earthquake, the Movie-forgot the name of the brand CV used for marketing after that)- but, apart from some deep synth sounds on some of the prog rock I listen to, I'm not sure how many natural instruments go down really deep. (Bosendorfer with extended lower register is what, a little below 20 hz and that's not all that common). Most music and "thwack" is a bit higher, I think, no? Is the thinking that if it can do a Saturn V, it can easily handle a synth, drum or double bass?
Music comes first in my system, and I am not really interested in sound effects. I also play movies and such through the same Mch system. But, I have little live reference to what those sound effects are really supposed to sound like, as opposed to music, where my frequent concert attendance gives me a far better reference standard. I would not know if a rocket launch or such is being reproduced with full realism. Those effects sound pretty spectacular to me as is on my system.
Though my main speakers are sizeable towers with bass extension spec'ed to 28hz, and my main amp delivers over 900 watts at 4 ohms, two things have made a huuuuge (sorry, a Trumpism) difference in providing a better, more realistic to me experience with music: a subwoofer and DSP Room EQ.
Crossed over at 60-90 Hz, music just has better dynamics, seemingly lower distortion even at mid frequencies, less hangover or boominess, etc. Integration via digital bass management is superb - sonically transparent to me. It is nice to have frequency extension below 20 Hz, but I agree, there is not much music down there, so it is not crucial. But, there is also considerable improvement above the very lowest octave that maximizes the enjoyment of music.
Also, I can position the sub and the other channels independently, the sub for best bass, the other channels for best imaging.
So, it is a no-brainer for me. The sub and the EQ are a definite improvement I could not part with. It just makes music sound better. Yet, the sub disappears even in small scale music where there is not much deep bass energy. But, a piano without 20Hz response, a cello or double bass, etc. sound more like live to me. A full symphony orchestra has the weight and dynamic impact much more like my live experience.
Though my main speakers are sizeable towers with bass extension spec'ed to 28hz, and my main amp delivers over 900 watts at 4 ohms, two things have made a huuuuge (sorry, a Trumpism) difference in providing a better, more realistic to me experience with music: a subwoofer and DSP Room EQ.
Crossed over at 60-90 Hz, music just has better dynamics, seemingly lower distortion even at mid frequencies, less hangover or boominess, etc. Integration via digital bass management is superb - sonically transparent to me. It is nice to have frequency extension below 20 Hz, but I agree, there is not much music down there, so it is not crucial. But, there is also considerable improvement above the very lowest octave that maximizes the enjoyment of music.
Also, I can position the sub and the other channels independently, the sub for best bass, the other channels for best imaging.
So, it is a no-brainer for me. The sub and the EQ are a definite improvement I could not part with. It just makes music sound better. Yet, the sub disappears even in small scale music where there is not much deep bass energy. But, a piano without 20Hz response, a cello or double bass, etc. sound more like live to me. A full symphony orchestra has the weight and dynamic impact much more like my live experience.
The space shuttle launch, i ve always wanted to expirience that live, that should be awesome .
Sadly no more shuttles will go up , only smaller stuff , although the future mars explorer launch should be huge as well (large rockets fuel tanks ), if it happens??
Sadly no more shuttles will go up , only smaller stuff , although the future mars explorer launch should be huge as well (large rockets fuel tanks ), if it happens??
When I lived in Florida, we saw a number of them take off from the Turnpike. The entire road would empty out and every car would be pulled on the side watching. It certainly was awe inspiring. Even more remarkable was taking a tour of the launch area and seeing the enormity of everything first hand. The scale is beyond anything one can fathom without going there.
Also treble... I've been testing out various super tweeters to fill in 15kHz+ and the super tweeter has an enormous impact on the perceived tone, clarity and detail of the midrange. High frequency harmonics also make a big difference, and it is helpful to have a lot of treble extension to capture them.
Many moons ago I "got" that the impact from the bass content was about having integrity in the sound picture, overall competence was king - and have never worried about the size of my drivers since ...
Awful or mediocre bass impact, from monster speakers or subwoofers, has never worked its 'magic' on me; but a small bookshelf projecting a superb Jack Bruce effort, cutting through the mix brilliantly, has me bouncing around the room ... whatever floats your ...
You need large surface area or a horn to produce convincing midbass, excursion can't make up for it. Unless you listen at low volumes all the time, and even then large surface area is helpful.
It's physics and you can't side-step the issue no matter what, or how good you think the rest of your system is. Big woofers are king, and nothing is ever going to change that.
Many moons ago I "got" that the impact from the bass content was about having integrity in the sound picture, overall competence was king - and have never worried about the size of my drivers since ...
Awful or mediocre bass impact, from monster speakers or subwoofers, has never worked its 'magic' on me; but a small bookshelf projecting a superb Jack Bruce effort, cutting through the mix brilliantly, has me bouncing around the room ... whatever floats your ...
That's because subwoofers don't really have impact, they produce a sensation of power but not impact, that's a higher frequency phenomenon that requires big woofers to get right.
Try the first track from Army of Mushrooms, "Never Mind". It's brought some systems to their knees... almost impossible for panels to play it even at moderate volumes.
I'm not getting this point Dave??
Most larger subwoofers incorporate big woofer drivers. Please elaborate on how higher frequencies require big woofers to get right.
I'm not getting this point Dave??
If you listen to a kick drum on a subwoofer (<= 60 Hz or so) you'll notice the "thwack" is gone, the sensation of impact is quite different. It still has impact but more a feeling of power rather than a crisp attack.
To properly reproduce a kick drum in it's entirety requires a driver with large surface area playing much higher frequencies than subwoofers do, so a large woofer. Small speakers with small woofers will never be able to sound convincing, especially at realistic volume levels. Bass instruments need to have their higher harmonics done justice in order to sound realistic and have impact...
Or just listen to a kick drum played on a 15" woofer vs a 6.5" woofer, both using the same subwoofer and this will be easy to understand.
If you listen to a kick drum on a subwoofer (<= 60 Hz or so) you'll notice the "thwack" is gone, the sensation of impact is quite different. It still has impact but more a feeling of power rather than a crisp attack.
To properly reproduce a kick drum in it's entirety requires a driver with large surface area playing much higher frequencies than subwoofers do, so a large woofer. Small speakers with small woofers will never be able to sound convincing, especially at realistic volume levels. Bass instruments need to have their higher harmonics done justice in order to sound realistic and have impact...
Or just listen to a kick drum played on a 15" woofer vs a 6.5" woofer, both using the same subwoofer and this will be easy to understand.
What design, to you, best solves this equation? A woofer tower with several 8" or 10" diameter drivers?
Nice, very nice.
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Yes, bass is the place, and it comes in all flavors. This organ music video above is a very tasty and powerful flavor; my bag as I can feel the emotional power.
Telarc has some recordings of movie soundtracks in the 5Hz region (CDs). Some movies (Blu-rays, DVDs, ...) have content in the 1Hz region. ...Unfiltered bass. Some documentaries about the Atom bomb are bass threatening. ...Woofers threatening. ...Rocket launchers...Apollo missions. ...Apollo 13 - the movie. ...U-571
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This CD has content in the 18-22Hz region...constant. It exercises/exorcises your subwoofers and their plate amps by cooking them to the limit.
You can fry your eggs here; no need to buy a cooking stove...use your subwoofer's rear heatsinks.
It's a compilation album. It's not music I listen to, ever. But for exorcising your woofers, and/or subwoofers; it works.
Either lots of surface area or a horn, which has the effect of providing more surface area.
This guy ? is one of the best and fasted world's drummer. Check the speed starting @ around 9:30
This is a highly ? recommended Music Documentary (2010). ...I've watched it few times over the years; it's one of thee very best.
The bass impact of these best world's drummers is a pure delight for your speakers, subwoofers and ears.
Again, very highly recommended.
* It was mentioned recently here @ WBF, but there wasn't many replies ? http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?20652-A-Drummers-Dream-on-Netflix
I guess not many members are aware of it. So I want to put a very special emphasis to it because I have a very strong feeling that the majority of the members here (and everywhere, from all other music forums) are going to be extremely satisfied to discover it. It was made in 2010 - I believe it's on Netflix if you subscribe...just don't miss it...wherever you can listen to it.
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I saw it on Netflix. I loved it as a former drummer. I thought Magini was great. But the latin drummer and the latin conga player were my favorites.
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