The Bass is the place!!

[Ron Resnick]

Thank you very much for those detailed answers to my questions! Yes, that was very helpful!

I assumed you were talking about Seatons. Mark makes fantastic equipment -- at very reasonable prices.

 

[Ron Resnick]

The objective with "overkill wooferage" is to have extension, headroom, and smooth bass in multiple listening locations. Just because a system has extension like audioguy's does not mean it sounds boomy or unnatural for music listening. I've always said that the low frequencies allow a more accurate portrayal of the fundamental resonant signature of the recording venue. Extreme wooferage only causes problems with poorly designed or set-up turntable systems with rumble.

Lee

Anything worth woofing is worth over-woofing!

 

[DaveyF]

IME, a lot of us miss a simple fact when it comes to 'accurate' bass reproduction. That fact is that no matter how low the speaker, or sub, is able to go, the room has to be able to support that wavelength. A speaker that can drop down to 10hz or less with little or no distortion is great...so long as the room that it is going to be placed in does not muddy up the sound and distort the accuracy of the signal. Again, IME, the typical large speaker that we see with multiple bass drivers ( in a separate column or single box) is going to be harder to place ( and be more room dependent) than a well designed smaller speaker with the addition of a subwoofer. The potential for the 'vertical blind' effect is much greater with multi column designs, IMHO. Now, whether we like that particular kind of sound/distortion...well that's something for another discussion.

 

[LL21]

IME, a lot of us miss a simple fact when it comes to 'accurate' bass reproduction. That fact is that no matter how low the speaker, or sub, is able to go, the room has to be able to support that wavelength. A speaker that can drop down to 10hz or less with little or no distortion is great...so long as the room that it is going to be placed in does not muddy up the sound and distort the accuracy of the signal. Again, IME, the typical large speaker that we see with multiple bass drivers ( in a separate column or single box) is going to be harder to place ( and be more room dependent) than a well designed smaller speaker with the addition of a subwoofer. The potential for the 'vertical blind' effect is much greater with multi column designs, IMHO. Now, whether we like that particular kind of sound/distortion...well that's something for another discussion.

+1...i do think over-spec'ing woofers is not bad thing because it allows the woofers to 'loaf' along making the bass cleaner. But i ALSO agree that if the room cannot handle sub 15hz frequencies, its better to roll them off. Our big Velodyne DD18+ was 6db rolloff at sub-15hz, and it was moving wine glasses in the next room, and the living room clearly was not responding well either with 'roar'. We rolled off at 18db, and the bass is now very very clear. It was a new one for me...i had not realized just how much a difference that edit would make to all the various setup options in the Velodyne.

 

[audioguy]

+1...i do think over-spec'ing woofers is not bad thing because it allows the woofers to 'loaf' along making the bass cleaner. But i ALSO agree that if the room cannot handle sub 15hz frequencies, its better to roll them off. Our big Velodyne DD18+ was 6db rolloff at sub-15hz, and it was moving wine glasses in the next room, and the living room clearly was not responding well either with 'roar'. We rolled off at 18db, and the bass is now very very clear. It was a new one for me...i had not realized just how much a difference that edit would make to all the various setup options in the Velodyne.

Pardon this horrible paraphrase: "It's much better to have it and not use it than to not have it at all". And I would agree that, particularly with music, eliminating the frequencies below approximately 20HZ (normally only sub-harmonics in the case of music) can be a wise choice in some rooms and/or with some subs.

 

[bonzo75]

audioguy does have some seriously impressive bass capabilities!

Ron, music is usually less demanding than HT... although some music does have extremely low frequency content a great majority does not. But if you want to play Amon Tobin, Infected Mushroom, other electronica or pipe organ at high SPLs the way the artist intended you'll want a bass system comparable to HT requirements. For most music it won't matter much but for some it will.

This is true. I investigated a lot of Datasat installations (similar to audioguys) and it was amazing the bass control they had. Most of them were not music guys, but their tech speak made the most sense, and the Church Organ in the Auro 3d demo disc is still the best I have heard. One guy also demoed me a clip of a crappy movie scene where bullets start flying around - first slowly, then get more explosive, and finally explosions start ending in a crescendo of big explosions. The bass control to finely show the placement and loudness of different bullets and explosions in that room was tremendous.

Such systems beat 2-ch systems on imaging, concert hall depth feel, soundstage, bass, and noise floor (noise floor is lower by as we hear the room less, and you feel the quietness much more than Entreq like box will ever let you). What you could miss out on some music is the tone from superior audiophile sources and preamps.

Mahler 2 and Choral, for example, sounds superb on datasat. But the voice of god channel (overhead speaker) is also required for the concert hall depth. It is amazing what a 13.4 B&W with Datasat Auro 3d system did in a 7m*3m room

 

[bonzo75]

It has to be a big horn. Somewhere I have some links to pictures of BIG horns where the mouth takes up most of one end of the room. Or a "tapped horn", which isn't really a horn.

There is a guy n London who makes his own tapped horns - dirt cheap - easily go below 20 Hz for organs. And he can build them to fit any room. The bass horns of trios also deliver amazing bass and dynamics.

 

[DaveyF]

The bass really is the place!!
Yesterday, I swapped out my stock REL connector for a new Signal REL Speakon link cable. HOLY ----!! This was one of the most obvious upgrades that I have ever done!! The bass snapped into place, with far far more resolution, depth and speed. Not only did the bass improve, but the whole sound stepped up a notch! The highs were more defined and the imaging was even more locked in---which I did not think was possible. All this from one simple cable change??? Wow!
I HIGHLY recommend that anyone with a REL sub do this upgrade as soon as possible...( and here's the other bonus...this cable is very inexpensive!).

 

[RogerD]

We read listening experience after listening experience. We travel all over to listen to other systems and attempt to 'upgrade' the SQ of our own systems...and all along we seem to be fighting the one thing that is the bane of our a'phile existence.
IMO, that thing is getting the bass to sound realistic ( read accurate, extended and NOT boomy) in our rooms. Most speaker manufacturer's seem to have as much trouble designing their speakers to allow for bass...never mind accurate and extended bass. Many/Most simply give up and give us a smaller cabinet with a small or mid size bass driver ( pretty safe). Some ( Like Wilson and a few others) give you a larger cabinet, BUT with the consequence of much higher price and more complexity. The result, depending on the listener's room is bass that can be reasonably accurate, BUT nowhere near what we hear 'live' or in the concert hall! Unlike the other frequencies that the speaker has to contend with and reproduce...mids and highs, IMHO the bass is the place!!
As the impressions of the ML Neolith speaker are being made available to us, the bass and its 'issues' are still a BIG ( MAJOR) part of its perceived flaws.
Add sub woofers and maybe the bass comes more into focus..or you end up with the 'boom' that most of us detest. Too bad that this hobby and music in general, relies so heavily of the bottom end reproduction....and that almost no speaker ( or designer) seems to have an easy time with it. Lets face it, how many times can you count, that the bass wasn't an issue with the SQ ( or in one's system)...perfect pitch, extension, accuracy, resolution and definition. Plus, the room worked like a charm to support all of that......

The Bass-----is the place!
Your thoughts......................

Well, what i would do is buy a powered subwoofer w/ a built in crossover and make sure you have it coupled to your sub floor. In fact if you don't already put spikes under your preamp and sources (DAC and transport) and then go down to the supermarket and purchase a couple packs of sponge cloth. Then purchase some heavy tiles about 3 x 8,place the sponge(trim it to size) on top of your electronics and the tile (about 7lbs per unit). This should clean up your bass. Call Velodyne and see if they still offer to rebuild the amplifier on their FRS18. They did several years ago for about 300.00. If they do look for a clean one on ebay,they can be had for about 500.00 or less. Or just find a sub that will fill your needs.
I doubt that your speakers will provide the kind of bass you desire though. You might try to improve the anti vibration first...you never know...good luck.

 

[MadFloyd]

The bass really is the place!!
Yesterday, I swapped out my stock REL connector for a new Signal REL Speakon link cable. HOLY ----!! This was one of the most obvious upgrades that I have ever done!! The bass snapped into place, with far far more resolution, depth and speed. Not only did the bass improve, but the whole sound stepped up a notch! The highs were more defined and the imaging was even more locked in---which I did not think was possible. All this from one simple cable change??? Wow!
I HIGHLY recommend that anyone with a REL sub do this upgrade as soon as possible...( and here's the other bonus...this cable is very inexpensive!).

Davey, can you elaborate a bit? My REL G2s come with Speakon cables... are you saying you went from Speakon to Speakon and noticed a difference or were you connected via some other type of cable before?

 

[ack]

Davey, can you elaborate a bit? My REL G2s come with Speakon cables... are you saying you went from Speakon to Speakon and noticed a difference or were you connected via some other type of cable before?

I went with a cardas speakon cable over a decade ago and the improvement over the stock speakon cable was quite significant. Low capacitance high inductance is the key here.

 

[DaveyF]

Davey, can you elaborate a bit? My REL G2s come with Speakon cables... are you saying you went from Speakon to Speakon and noticed a difference or were you connected via some other type of cable before?

The stock REL cable is what i replaced. The stock cable does indeed feature a Speakon connector, but the cabling is nothing special. I replaced the cable with a Signal cable..which is designed specifically for the REL ( and therefore includes a speakon connector). This cable is a major step up in SQ...you would be surprised at the difference...plus, it is quite inexpensive and easily acquired through Audiogon.

 

[MadFloyd]

The stock REL cable is what i replaced. The stock cable does indeed feature a Speakon connector, but the cabling is nothing special. I replaced the cable with a Signal cable..which is designed specifically for the REL ( and therefore includes a speakon connector). This cable is a major step up in SQ...you would be surprised at the difference...plus, it is quite inexpensive and easily acquired through Audiogon.

Thanks, Davey. A pair of the cables has now been ordered.

 

[DaveyF]

Thanks, Davey. A pair of the cables has now been ordered.

Ian, I think you will have just as big a smile on your face as I now have.
BTW, Congrats on the CAT gear...it really is special.

 

[Al M.]

The bass really is the place!!
Yesterday, I swapped out my stock REL connector for a new Signal REL Speakon link cable. HOLY ----!! This was one of the most obvious upgrades that I have ever done!! The bass snapped into place, with far far more resolution, depth and speed. Not only did the bass improve, but the whole sound stepped up a notch! The highs were more defined and the imaging was even more locked in---which I did not think was possible. All this from one simple cable change??? Wow!
I HIGHLY recommend that anyone with a REL sub do this upgrade as soon as possible...( and here's the other bonus...this cable is very inexpensive!).

I used Speakon cable for my REL in the past (from amps to the 'hi' input), but since 3 years I simply use an interconnect to the 'lo' input directly from my DAC (used as pre-amp via variable output).

 

[DaveyF]

I used Speakon cable for my REL in the past (from amps to the 'hi' input), but since 3 years I simply use an interconnect to the 'lo' input directly from my DAC (used as pre-amp via variable output).

That is another way to connect the sub. However, I think REL states in the manual that the connection to the amp is preferred if you want ultimate SQ. That is what I hear with the two differing connections.

 

[Al M.]

That is another way to connect the sub. However, I think REL states in the manual that the connection to the amp is preferred if you want ultimate SQ. That is what I hear with the two differing connections.

Not quite. REL states that the 'hi' input gives the best integration because then the low bass signal fed off the amp matches the characteristics of the rest of the spectrum through the main speakers driven by the amp. I don't hear any discontinuity with feeding the low bass directly from the DAC.

 

[DaveyF]

Not quite. REL states that the 'hi' input gives the best integration because then the low bass signal fed off the amp matches the characteristics of the rest of the spectrum through the main speakers driven by the amp. I don't hear any discontinuity with feeding the low bass directly from the DAC.

Al, the key words here being " the best integration", which I believe also leads to the higher SQ. You may want to try both set-ups...go back to the Hi level connection and add a Signal cable...I'm very certain that you will like the result. ( Plus the Signal cable is inexpensive!)

 

[Al M.]

Al, the key words here being " the best integration", which I believe also leads to the higher SQ. You may want to try both set-ups...go back to the Hi level connection and add a Signal cable...I'm very certain that you will like the result. ( Plus the Signal cable is inexpensive!)

Again, the problem of "best integration" simply doesn't apply to my situation, as I explained. Once you come listen to my system you will understand. You're invited anytime you're in the Boston area.

I can't use the Hi level connection since the amps overloaded the input, resulting in a low frequency growl even on some recordings that had not bass output whatsoever. I can't remember the exact technical reason for the overload but something to do with relative signal levels.

 

[DaveyF]

Again, the problem of "best integration" simply doesn't apply to my situation, as I explained. Once you come listen to my system you will understand. You're invited anytime you're in the Boston area.

I can't use the Hi level connection since the amps overloaded the input, resulting in a low frequency growl even on some recordings that had not bass output whatsoever. I can't remember the exact technical reason for the overload but something to do with relative signal levels.

Al, thanks for the invite...if you find yourself in the S.Calif area you are welcome also.
Odd that the amps overload the Rel input, I was under the impression that the high level input was at a very high impedance. Nonetheless, if it happens, then it happens. I presume you have discussed this with the folks at REL.