The end of the CD

[Mike Lavigne]

Why can't I do that Mike? I can only go by what I've heard and to date I've never come across a file player I liked. You wouldn't believe for the past how many years I'm told that I must hear the greatest latest server because the last generation had this and that issue but at the time I was told that they were the greatest until they weren't in the blink of any eye. Then it was the file type, then the interface, then sampling method, then the hardware, then firmware and software and now back to the beginning again. Over the last 4 years aside from my in home experiences I must have heard at least 3 dozen systems using very expensive top rated dacs with various file servers there was not one that I found even tolerable and the owners with decent transports all agreed. I'll change my mind about the hardware the day I hear a file player that doesn't absolutely suck to me, but right now they all are what they are. Unlike analog certain things are fixed in the digital world even with digital photography. I used to take pains in picking the camera with the right sensor to couple to tha lens with special drawing qualities and then which program to develop the raw files in, on and on and on to get it right, the same effort I used to put in with film. On the screen I can still see the value of some of my efforts but when it comes to the actual prints an inkjet is an inkjet is an inkjet and it doesn't make any difference besides lens perspective if I use the phone or the 80 megapixel medium format camera. But I can take that same digital file create a transparency and develop the picture in a traditional darkroom and transform it. A file player/server is that inkjet printer to me, it doesn't matter if it's a Canon, Epson or Fuji aside from some tonal differences the end prints are all basically the same. What I get from a good transport is the same thing I get by taking the digital transparency and bringing it to life in a different process, I enjoy what I hearing and there are even moments that I forge I'm listening to a system.

david

David,

you can do what you want, and I can disagree if I want. you can feel you have done sufficient investigations, and I can say baloney, you have not.

I have no illusions for you to ever change your mind on anything, nor is it necessary. and same for my own opinions. I do get the photo analogy, but don't agree with the end result analogy since I reject the ultimate truths you are assigning to discs and files. not how I hear it. I accept it is how you hear it.

with all due respect, of course.

Mike

 

[XCop5089]

Steve,

You know I respect your engineering background, prowess, and products.

Might I suggest you look into the Melco line of servers? Based on my computer and systems engineering background, they check all the boxes whether Ethernet or USB, HDD or SSD. If you have access to Hifi News/RR from the UK they have done some engineering measurements of them albeit crammed into an article. MELCO are a division of Buffalo who as you know make high quality computer peripherals. They can afford to develop purpose-built components and choose the best of "off the shelf." These Melco Servers have better components and build quality than others you have mentioned. Their quality is high-end Japanese design and build. I think if one tried to duplicate the components and layout, etc. one would find they are very competitively priced. At this point in my evaluation, I would pick one from the Melco range.

One thing I like is after you populate the server with e.g. downloaded music files, you can disconnect one Ethernet cable from the router or switch and run it as a direct connection to the Ethernet enabled DAC. Also, their USB connections to (the vast majority presently of) DACs, even inexpensive ones, seem to make the perform with less jitter according to the test I have seen, a worthy result in engineering.

The only spot for improvements seems to be that they do not have all the software player options that the popular brands have. I believe they are moving ahead on this. The second is that there is not a clear back up strategy or backup and expansion strategy. However, I think this is true of most brands of servers on the market today. Certainly, given their two Ethernet ports, I can imagine code that would perform automatic backups if connected to a NAS or a computer. Server farms have been doing this for ages.

I await further developments and your inquiry.

Bso
Note: I do not plan to purchase any equipment mentioned in the next 72 hours, but I have been accumulating NVDA.

Bso

Well done for mentioning the Melco range of network attached music server/players.

As a Melco N1ZH/60/2 owner, I am a bit confused by your statement that "there is not a clear backup strategy or backup and expansion strategy!"

The rear panel has USB ports for "Backup" "Extension" and "USB.3" in addition to the dedicated USB port which I connect to my dCS Vivaldi Upsampler Plus.

My regime includes regularly backing up the contents of the 2 X 3TB drives (in RAID 0 configuration) onto a Buffalo HD-LX6.0TU3-EU6TB external HD.

If a user ever runs out of internal disc space, then an external HD can be connected to the "Extension" USB port for additional music storage/replay.

The Melco system in MKII guise is solidly built and offers an alternative high-quality music storage/replay medium. I am, however, still primarily a disciple of SACD/CD's!

My library consists of Hi-Rez downloads, purchased from the internet and CD's I own, that I have burned using my Buffalo BRXL-16U3 CD/Blu-Ray ripper.

 

[Al M.]

David,

you can do what you want, and I can disagree if I want. you can feel you have done sufficient investigations, and I can say baloney, you have not.

I have no illusions for you to ever change your mind on anything, nor is it necessary. and same for my own opinions. I do get the photo analogy, but don't agree with the end result analogy since I reject the ultimate truths you are assigning to discs and files. not how I hear it. I accept it is how you hear it.

with all due respect, of course.

Mike

Mike, I am very much looking forward to hear what David thinks about your digital once he visits. This will be interesting either way.

 

[Pb Blimp]

Steve,

You know I respect your engineering background, prowess, and products.

Might I suggest you look into the Melco line of servers? Based on my computer and systems engineering background, they check all the boxes whether Ethernet or USB, HDD or SSD. If you have access to Hifi News/RR from the UK they have done some engineering measurements of them albeit crammed into an article. MELCO are a division of Buffalo who as you know make high quality computer peripherals. They can afford to develop purpose-built components and choose the best of "off the shelf." These Melco Servers have better components and build quality than others you have mentioned. Their quality is high-end Japanese design and build. I think if one tried to duplicate the components and layout, etc. one would find they are very competitively priced. At this point in my evaluation, I would pick one from the Melco range.

One thing I like is after you populate the server with e.g. downloaded music files, you can disconnect one Ethernet cable from the router or switch and run it as a direct connection to the Ethernet enabled DAC. Also, their USB connections to (the vast majority presently of) DACs, even inexpensive ones, seem to make the perform with less jitter according to the test I have seen, a worthy result in engineering.

The only spot for improvements seems to be that they do not have all the software player options that the popular brands have. I believe they are moving ahead on this. The second is that there is not a clear back up strategy or backup and expansion strategy. However, I think this is true of most brands of servers on the market today. Certainly, given their two Ethernet ports, I can imagine code that would perform automatic backups if connected to a NAS or a computer. Server farms have been doing this for ages.

I await further developments and your inquiry.

Bso
Note: I do not plan to purchase any equipment mentioned in the next 72 hours, but I have been accumulating NVDA.

Bso

Well done for mentioning the Melco range of network attached music server/players.

As a Melco N1ZH/60/2 owner, I am a bit confused by your statement that "there is not a clear backup strategy or backup and expansion strategy!"

The rear panel has USB ports for "Backup" "Extension" and "USB.3" in addition to the dedicated USB port which I connect to my dCS Vivaldi Upsampler Plus.

My regime includes regularly backing up the contents of the 2 X 3TB drives (in RAID 0 configuration) onto a Buffalo HD-LX6.0TU3-EU6TB external HD.

If a user ever runs out of internal disc space, then an external HD can be connected to the "Extension" USB port for additional music storage/replay.

The Melco system in MKII guise is solidly built and offers an alternative high-quality music storage/replay medium. I am, however, still primarily a disciple of SACD/CD's!

My library consists of Hi-Rez downloads, purchased from the internet and CD's I own, that I have burned using my Buffalo BRXL-16U3 CD/Blu-Ray ripper.

If they would do Roon and SSD in the USA they would be at the top of my list!

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, I am very much looking forward to hear what David thinks about your digital once he visits. This will be interesting either way.

I can tell you I have zero expectations (or any desire for a particular result) for any change in David's perspectives. but also open to any possibility.

we will go where the music leads us. maybe more tape than digital I expect.

 

[Al M.]

I can tell you I have zero expectations (or any desire for a particular result) for any change in David's perspectives. but also open to any possibility.

we will go where the music leads us. maybe more tape than digital I expect.

Or perhaps at that time you will also have a (MSB?) transport on hand for comparison?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Or perhaps at that time you will also have a (MSB?) transport on hand for comparison?

possible I suppose. I might ask about it.

 

[Pb Blimp]

I can tell you I have zero expectations (or any desire for a particular result) for any change in David's perspectives. but also open to any possibility.

we will go where the music leads us. maybe more tape than digital I expect.

The Great Spinner vs. File Challenge of 2018


It would be fun to do the testing blind. You two both have some of the best (most experienced) ears on the planet. We could have someone make a book and we could all place wagers. We could stream it live with half the book going to charity.

 

[steve williams]

I can tell you I have zero expectations (or any desire for a particular result) for any change in David's perspectives. but also open to any possibility.

we will go where the music leads us. maybe more tape than digital I expect.

The one thing that I have learned personally about david is that he is brutally honest so don't ask "what do you think?" unless you really want to know

 

[Rodney Gold]

The trick is to be honest but not brutal.....

 

[andromedaaudio]

Come on guys its only audio its not the end of the world if digital wins or analogue

 

[bonzo75]

Come on guys its only audio its not the end of the world if digital wins or analogue

Its actually files vs CD. Digital vs analog there is unanimity.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

I might be wrong but my impression was that Mike always still gave the ultimate edge to his TT system vs his digital just that his digital has caught up significantly since the Select 2 arrived?

 

[microstrip]

Its actually files vs CD. Digital vs analog there is unanimity.

Where?

 

[andromedaaudio]

Yeah but Mike can also Through tape in the mix to complicatie things.
Files versus CD okay but unanimity between audio philes hmm not so sure

 

[andromedaaudio]

What i do like about the whatsbestforum is the all out assault attitude of the parties involved

 

[andromedaaudio]

I do agree also with David however that very expensive digital. Gives litte progres , baby steps. Imo. Same as cables
But .maybe my current room isnt good enough to compare properly who knows .

 

[Pb Blimp]

Its actually files vs CD. Digital vs analog there is unanimity.

Oh God,here we go.

 

[bonzo75]

Guys I really don't need to add a smiley do I

 

[ddk]

David,

you can do what you want, and I can disagree if I want. you can feel you have done sufficient investigations, and I can say baloney, you have not.

I have no illusions for you to ever change your mind on anything, nor is it necessary. and same for my own opinions. I do get the photo analogy, but don't agree with the end result analogy since I reject the ultimate truths you are assigning to discs and files. not how I hear it. I accept it is how you hear it.

with all due respect, of course.

Mike

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything just sharing where I'm at based on experience and preference; it's my truth and not the ultimate with millions of happy inkjet users out there. I don't doubt that you're satisfied with your server, wish I could find a solution too. I use an iPad and Pandora to pipe music to various systems around the house with a bunch of airport expresses and buy around 100 CDs a year from Amazon that come with digital downloads I would love to buy a box that enhanced the experience, download hi-rez files of my favorite music and not bother with physical media but that hasn't been my experience. Servers aren't new and there's been continuous claims of greatness almost every week for over a decade down to audiophile priced usb wires but suddenly everyone hears what's wrong and usb is dead, long live ethernet. So pardon my skepticism but this isn't only my truth anymore nor is it the ultimate truth, only current reality. Don't think that I have some kind of existential belief against computer audio (that's received for analog vs. digital !) because I don't, just haven't heard one that works right.

david