The end of the CD

[Al M.]

AES/EBU in the Baetis sounds really good, ditto with excellent transports... or QED, as they say. It's just that it's expensive to get an excellent transport, not much different than doing so many other things audio right. As you know, I will continue spinning disks as well, until there is something better - and that has yet to come.

Not claiming that it's as good as your Spectral transport, but my Simaudio Moon 260 DT transport *) has now shown very high resolution in two different systems. It costs only about $ 2K . My MIT digital cable (AES/EBU) that connects it to my DAC costs about the same .






________________________________________

*) image shows version with built-in DAC

 

[ddk]

so the NAS are the storage devices, and the laptops are playing the files. I would not use the term 'high end' to describe a NAS (unless part of an engineered system). possibly if the dac had Ethernet then it's different. which dacs were you using? were you using USB?

more likely it's a generic type NAS, which is just a bit bucket and has little (but not nothing) to do with performance. it's the nasty SMPS-rich laptop you are hearing (the NAS likely has SMPS's too). of course it sounds crappy. you choose easy and not performance. it does not take much of a server to surpass a laptop. and decent transports will sound better than laptops....no surprise there. but putting together a show system it's an afterthought anyway so I get it. but don't then generalize about 'computers', take the time to investigate how different servers differ.

i'm not claiming you would ever be fully satisfied with any digital or that you even care enough to get into it. but it's wrong to not educate yourself about how different file handling approaches sound and then just paint things with a broad brush.

Firewire or USB from the laptops, no idea what from the server, the NAS part is because we found the internet connection noisy in the hotel otherwise the unit was some kind of cloud server not sure of the interface but it did connect to Tidal & iTunes. You'd fed it a CD and it would upload to the cloud or local storage.
This isn't the limit of my exposure Mike only what we used at the shows on occasion but every room I visited including MQA & Tidal demos working off files sounded the same as ours, no difference. I had units setup in my system and regularly hear hi rez files at friends and clients, there's no difference in what they do wrong. Every track and music sounds identical to the one before, that's not the case with CDs in the same system using the same DAC. With the transport every CD is individual and unique, of course if it's not over processed pop or tweaked audiophile pressings which do sound the same. I'm not nostalgic Mike trying to hold on to some vintage ideal, I will change or upgrade if I find something sounds truly better than what I have but I'm very picky and know exactly what I want, hence the longevity of my system. I don't hate digital but I don't love it and accept it's shortcomings. I'm very satisfied with my current digital setup, I know it's shortcomings too and am on the lookout for better and I will upgrade when when I come across something significantly better. Some sort of a transport is a must for me and the day I find an acceptable sounding server I'll get one and plug in, but until then I stick to what I have.

david

 

[thedudeabides]

Uh, there is no conversion - as most CDPs aren't even in production anymore. See Wadia, Ayre, etc. The market has already moved to streaming.

Honestly, lots of grumpy old men on this thread.

Uh, compact discs are still very popular in Japan. Hence, companies like Esoteric, Luxman, and Marantz continue to manufacture hi quality CDP's. And numerous labels (Pentatone, Channel Classics, Naxos, etc.) continue to record and produce CD's and SACD's for the international market.

Your generalization about those who wish to continue using these devices / media (if I understand your post correctly) is, with all due respect, presumptuous, judgmental, and trite. As many have previously stated, this hobby is highly subjective and based on personal preferences. It's unfortunate that you apparently don't seem to not understand this basic reality.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Dude, pretty much as I said.
Markets still healthy in Asia, and Europe, for cd/sacd.
No panic yet, that Monty Python moment is not upon as yet:
“This cd is no more! It has ceased to be!”

 

[Al M.]

Dude, pretty much as I said.
Markets still healthy in Asia, and Europe, for cd/sacd.

My dealer tells me my Canadian CD transport sells in healthy numbers in Europe, perhaps not so much in the US. But then, the US is not the center of the world either, but that's a different topic.

 

[spiritofmusic]

My beloved Eera out of France have just released two new transports to add to their existing two.

 

[KeithR]

Uh, compact discs are still very popular in Japan. Hence, companies like Esoteric, Luxman, and Marantz continue to manufacture hi quality CDP's. And numerous labels (Pentatone, Channel Classics, Naxos, etc.) continue to record and produce CD's and SACD's for the international market.

Your generalization about those who wish to continue using these devices / media (if I understand your post correctly) is, with all due respect, presumptuous, judgmental, and trite. As many have previously stated, this hobby is highly subjective and based on personal preferences. It's unfortunate that you apparently don't seem to not understand this basic reality.

Uh...it's going that way even in Japan. Youtube is the biggest provider of music there now.

https://www.digitalmusicnews.com/2017/09/25/riaj-cd-youtube-report/

I'm going to Japan in April/May - I'll be sure to keep a lookout with <40 year olds with Discmans

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Firewire or USB from the laptops, no idea what from the server, the NAS part is because we found the internet connection noisy in the hotel otherwise the unit was some kind of cloud server not sure of the interface but it did connect to Tidal & iTunes. You'd fed it a CD and it would upload to the cloud or local storage.
This isn't the limit of my exposure Mike only what we used at the shows on occasion but every room I visited including MQA & Tidal demos working off files sounded the same as ours, no difference. I had units setup in my system and regularly hear hi rez files at friends and clients, there's no difference in what they do wrong. Every track and music sounds identical to the one before, that's not the case with CDs in the same system using the same DAC. With the transport every CD is individual and unique, of course if it's not over processed pop or tweaked audiophile pressings which do sound the same. I'm not nostalgic Mike trying to hold on to some vintage ideal, I will change or upgrade if I find something sounds truly better than what I have but I'm very picky and know exactly what I want, hence the longevity of my system. I don't hate digital but I don't love it and accept it's shortcomings. I'm very satisfied with my current digital setup, I know it's shortcomings too and am on the lookout for better and I will upgrade when when I come across something significantly better. Some sort of a transport is a must for me and the day I find an acceptable sounding server I'll get one and plug in, but until then I stick to what I have.

david

David, my only quibble is you lumping all file listening and related computers into one 'crappy' pile. I disagree with that. they are all different and there are many levels and degrees of natural musicality.

Mike

 

[spiritofmusic]

Keith, make sure you’re not seen dead at audio shows with all those over-40s.
Could be bad for your street cred as a hip young audiophile.
Btw, the very crowd who have caused the death of cd as you seem to be so “comme ci comme ca” about, look at all audiophiles as an anachronism.
And that means you. And me. And everyone else on this forum.
Never mind, I’m sure all these over 40s disc spinning dinosaurs will be civil to you when you’re criticised by the I Tunes unwashed masses laughing at your hobby.

 

[Al M.]

Btw, the very crowd who have caused the death of cd as you seem to be so “comme ci comme ca” about, look at all audiophiles as an anachronism.

Yup, beware of what you wish for. At some point there will be only lossy AAC/MP3 streaming (Tidal doesn't seem to be doing so hot these days, a warning sign), and audiophiles will crave for the good old days when we still had music available at CD-level resolution. It's really not in the best interest of audiophiles to be so indifferent to the fate of the CD.

 

[SCAudiophile]

Uh...it's going that way even in Japan. Youtube is the biggest provider of music there now.

https://www.digitalmusicnews.com/2017/09/25/riaj-cd-youtube-report/

I'm going to Japan in April/May - I'll be sure to keep a lookout with <40 year olds with Discmans

You mean that Youtube is the biggest provider of SOUND don't you? <Sorry,...could not resist; this is a pet peeve with
me,....wife and her daughter tell me all the time that Pandora YouTube are all we need for "music" in the house and car.

I Love threads like this....CDs are dead, SACDs are dead, Vinyl is dead,.....the 1000s of new discs getting released monthly
must be a figment of our imagination LOL!!!

 

[ack]

My beloved Eera out of France have just released two new transports to add to their existing two.

That’s fantastic. My only problem with the silver disc - very similar to the LP - is production of the medium, and I’d rather have the files, just like I’d rather have the original master tapes. So I am still hoping for that truly high end file-based player. Doesn’t Burmester have one? What’s clearly out of the question is a server that depends on usb or Ethernet.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Check out Spin CDs.
No shortage of new cd’s released.
What IS true, is that the cd market is maturing to appeal to both under-40s and <coff coff> those over-40s, with collectors editions (deluxe Steve Wilson remastered Yes, J Tull, K Crimson catalogs), lavish live era collections (K Crimson 15 cd boxsets), defining album extravaganzas (eg original mix, alternative mix, rareties, live concert).
The standard cd catalog will sell off the back of these
SHM CD is still popular in Japan
SACD...

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ack, so this is my problem (one of) with servers.
You don’t want a server w usb or ethernet. To this ingenue, I immediately am lost, and feel one step removed from ever diving into streaming.
I know we had arguments back in the day, 16 v 18 bit v Bitstream, cd v sacd v dvd-a.
But computer audio is a swamp of conflicting claims and tech approaches that is a total turn off for the less than savvy observer.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Ah Digital convenience belongs to this age , i quit like the audio on dvd s as well , whether its the format OR the special care i dont know .
Having a fulltime range ls to listen to helps as well. On digital sources

 

[andromedaaudio]

Nothing wrong with you tube imo not all sound good. Far from that
But there are also recordings that sound exxcelent. I actually recorded. Some music from you tube that i played Through my speakers and uploaded on you tube again, its on my Andromeda audio channel

 

[ddk]

David, my only quibble is you lumping all file listening and related computers into one 'crappy' pile. I disagree with that. they are all different and there are many levels and degrees of natural musicality.

Mike

Why can't I do that Mike? I can only go by what I've heard and to date I've never come across a file player I liked. You wouldn't believe for the past how many years I'm told that I must hear the greatest latest server because the last generation had this and that issue but at the time I was told that they were the greatest until they weren't in the blink of any eye. Then it was the file type, then the interface, then sampling method, then the hardware, then firmware and software and now back to the beginning again. Over the last 4 years aside from my in home experiences I must have heard at least 3 dozen systems using very expensive top rated dacs with various file servers there was not one that I found even tolerable and the owners with decent transports all agreed. I'll change my mind about the hardware the day I hear a file player that doesn't absolutely suck to me, but right now they all are what they are. Unlike analog certain things are fixed in the digital world even with digital photography. I used to take pains in picking the camera with the right sensor to couple to tha lens with special drawing qualities and then which program to develop the raw files in, on and on and on to get it right, the same effort I used to put in with film. On the screen I can still see the value of some of my efforts but when it comes to the actual prints an inkjet is an inkjet is an inkjet and it doesn't make any difference besides lens perspective if I use the phone or the 80 megapixel medium format camera. But I can take that same digital file create a transparency and develop the picture in a traditional darkroom and transform it. A file player/server is that inkjet printer to me, it doesn't matter if it's a Canon, Epson or Fuji aside from some tonal differences the end prints are all basically the same. What I get from a good transport is the same thing I get by taking the digital transparency and bringing it to life in a different process, I enjoy what I hearing and there are even moments that I forge I'm listening to a system.

david

 

[ack]

You wouldn't believe for the past how many years I'm told that I must hear the greatest latest server because the last generation had this and that issue but at the time I was told that they were the greatest until they weren't in the blink of any eye. Then it was the file type, then the interface, then sampling method, then the hardware, then firmware and software and now back to the beginning again.

I am basically seeing and told the same thing: I haven't tried the latest hardware; or the newest software config options; or I have not posted which servers I have listened to or tried; ad nauseum. And all along, the current in vogue solutions are always great.... hmmmmm

 

[Empirical Audio]

You don’t want a server w usb or ethernet.

Since Ethernet is now the best sounding playback interface and it does not require and server to sound stellar, I cannot see lumping Ethernet into the same sentence with USB.

USB admittedly includes a lot of hoops to jump through in order to get superb sound quality. A couple of servers out there reduce this hassle, namely Aurender N10 and Antipodes, but the jitter is still a function of the USB interface in the DAC or converter. All bets are off on this because they run the gamut. Pick a good USB interface in a DAC, a good (probably expensive) USB cable and an Aurender N10 and you can get stellar results. Anything else may not get you there IME.

Ethernet on the other hand only requires a computer with Jriver on it and a LAN in your house. Audio quality can be improved by powering your router from an earth-grounded LPS, but other than that it does not even require expensive Ethernet cables. There is very little tweaking necessary to get stellar results. Just like USB however, the choice of Ethernet interface in the DAC will make all the difference.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

 

[Bso]

Since Ethernet is now the best sounding playback interface and it does not require and server to sound stellar, I cannot see lumping Ethernet into the same sentence with USB.

USB admittedly includes a lot of hoops to jump through in order to get superb sound quality. A couple of servers out there reduce this hassle, namely Aurender N10 and Antipodes, but the jitter is still a function of the USB interface in the DAC or converter. All bets are off on this because they run the gamut. Pick a good USB interface in a DAC, a good (probably expensive) USB cable and an Aurender N10 and you can get stellar results. Anything else may not get you there IME.

Ethernet on the other hand only requires a computer with Jriver on it and a LAN in your house. Audio quality can be improved by powering your router from an earth-grounded LPS, but other than that it does not even require expensive Ethernet cables. There is very little tweaking necessary to get stellar results. Just like USB however, the choice of Ethernet interface in the DAC will make all the difference.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

Steve,

You know I respect your engineering background, prowess, and products.

Might I suggest you look into the Melco line of servers? Based on my computer and systems engineering background, they check all the boxes whether Ethernet or USB, HDD or SSD. If you have access to Hifi News/RR from the UK they have done some engineering measurements of them albeit crammed into an article. MELCO are a division of Buffalo who as you know make high quality computer peripherals. They can afford to develop purpose-built components and choose the best of "off the shelf." These Melco Servers have better components and build quality than others you have mentioned. Their quality is high-end Japanese design and build. I think if one tried to duplicate the components and layout, etc. one would find they are very competitively priced. At this point in my evaluation, I would pick one from the Melco range.

One thing I like is after you populate the server with e.g. downloaded music files, you can disconnect one Ethernet cable from the router or switch and run it as a direct connection to the Ethernet enabled DAC. Also, their USB connections to (the vast majority presently of) DACs, even inexpensive ones, seem to make the perform with less jitter according to the test I have seen, a worthy result in engineering.

The only spot for improvements seems to be that they do not have all the software player options that the popular brands have. I believe they are moving ahead on this. The second is that there is not a clear back up strategy or backup and expansion strategy. However, I think this is true of most brands of servers on the market today. Certainly, given their two Ethernet ports, I can imagine code that would perform automatic backups if connected to a NAS or a computer. Server farms have been doing this for ages.

I await further developments and your inquiry.

Bso
Note: I do not plan to purchase any equipment mentioned in the next 72 hours, but I have been accumulating NVDA.