I see it as more that we are 'reference' fundamentalists, in that we believe the truth we hear and connect our own dots, until we hear better and then connect the new dots.
6-7 years ago I was a transport/silver disc fundamentalist with people wanting to send me files and me not even caring about it. so I had my son put together a (for that time) nice server and interface to receive files. then 3 years later I got a better server, but still had discs, than another 2 years later got an even better server (CAPSv4) and ditched the discs. and now I have the SGM and even though I've tried discs and might again try discs, I've moved on.
the only question is when you change from discs, not if. since the world is changing whether you like it or not. and at some future point, you will hear files surpass discs, then it won't be a big deal to change. or worth defending anymore.
I see it as more that we are 'reference' fundamentalists, in that we believe the truth we hear and connect our own dots, until we hear better and then connect the new dots.
6-7 years ago I was a transport/silver disc fundamentalist with people wanting to send me files and me not even caring about it. so I had my son put together a (for that time) nice server and interface to receive files. then 3 years later I got a better server, but still had discs, than another 2 years later got an even better server and ditched the discs. and now I have the SGM and even though I've tried discs and might again try discs, I've moved on.
the only question is when you change from discs, not if. since the world is changing whether you like it or not. and at some future point, you will hear files surpass discs, the it won't be a big deal to change. or worth defending anymore.
Sure, if I'd be looking for a file player I'd be looking at an expensive one like yours -- but my fancy goes more in the direction of a Baetis with AES/EBU output. My point is that some seem to imply that any half-way decent computer set-up will beat any CD transport. This is just not true, I know much better. Some also hail the wonders of music exploration by streaming to the point where they seem to imply that everyone who isn't tickled by that lives in the stone age.
But honestly, since I don't have unlimited resources, I still have much bigger fish to fry than going file replay. Improvements in my system elsewhere (some still on order, after having heard demo in my system) have paid off big time and showed just what incredible resolution my CD set-up has. If I would have had put the same money into an expensive server instead I'd be nowhere close to that. If I have extra money to spare sometime, I may consider file replay. In a few years perhaps, right now my appetite is as low as ever.
Mike, what I’d love to know is if you’d feel this way at a level significantly below yr SGM/MSB Select 3 box?
Would you be touting files if you were running a more modest Aurender/mid level dac versus similarly priced specialist cdp?
In my system I use a Sony dvp transport that I payed 60 bucks for and a tube DAC with nos tubes and all I hear is signal..as close to a master tape that was used in the conversion and DDD in some cases are better. Remove all the electrical hash and nothing but music and sound can be heard. I hope cd's never go away.
Roger Nice tapemachines you have there C 37 Nice, how does,the ampex. 440 sound. I was tempted to buy one at a Nice price. Plus IT was An overhauled one ?
Sure, if I'd be looking for a file player I'd be looking at an expensive one like yours -- but my fancy goes more in the direction of a Baetis with AES/EBU output. My point is that some seem to imply that any half-way decent computer set-up will beat any CD transport. This is just not true, I know much better. Some also hail the wonders of music exploration by streaming to the point where they seem to imply that everyone who isn't tickled by that lives in the stone age.
But honestly, since I don't have unlimited resources, I still have much bigger fish to fry than going file replay. Improvements in my system elsewhere (some still on order, after having heard demo in my system) have paid off big time and showed just what incredible resolution my CD set-up has. If I have extra money to spare sometime, I may consider file replay. In a few years perhaps, right now my appetite is as low as ever.
Mike, what I’d love to know is if you’d feel this way at a level significantly below yr SGM/MSB Select 3 box?
Would you be touting files if you were running a more modest Aurender/mid level dac versus similarly priced specialist cdp?
right now; I don't see dac quality or investment being the issue in my thinking. MSB makes a great transport, maybe the best. but at 20% of the top of line MSB cost, Aqua makes an excellent transport and dac. and the SGM, at $15k retail, is not limited to 'uber' level digital systems. so one does not need a $120k dac to surpass discs, it will happen in every price point.
my perspective scales just fine. you could choose gear half as expensive as those Aqua too and it should still apply. files are just better, servers keep improving at a higher rate than transports. and access to music on disc is declining.
personal listening culture trumps everything. so no one can tell you what you prefer. but once your ears hear that files are better, that is the first step.
right now; I don't see dac quality or investment being the issue in my thinking. MSB makes a great transport, maybe the best. but at 20% of the top of line MSB cost, Aqua makes an excellent transport and dac. and the SGM, at $15k retail, is not limited to 'uber' level digital systems. so one does not need a $120k dac to surpass discs, it will happen in every price point.
$ 15K is still a whole lot of money. As I said, I achieved far more important improvements elsewhere in my system for that money. A server couldn't possibly have made as much difference in resolution, with weaker links elsewhere in the chain.
And if someone says, you can beat a great transport with much less money spent on file replay: I'll believe it once I hear it, not before that day comes.
but once your ears hear that files are better, that is the first step.
Well Mike, there’s massive variance here.
JackD201 who facilitated my Eera cdp purchase 5 years ago, communicated to me that he’s had to spend 3x more than the Eera on his Aurender/dac/maxxed out install to minimise grid noise etc, to get close to the Eera, and even here the Eera is only moderately beaten by upscaling past 24/96. At 16/44, the Eera remains superior.
He’s sweated the details, and spent the hard cash, and in lots of cases still finds the Eera the more “satisfying” listen.
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For me, I have no issues that streaming can get me a new music library, I’d be crazy to argue against this.
But I’ve heard more yawning chasm in SQ going from a cheaper PC/dac option to an SGM/dac option, than any difference between cheaper and dearer cdp’s/cd transports.
So Mike, paint me skeptical that at equivalent price points, a streaming option naturally beats a dedicated cdp.
The SGM/T&A Dac8 at £20k is the only digital solution I’ve heard that stands up against my Eera cdp at £9k.
I’ve heard Melco, Aurender, CAD at shows, and none have made me want to junk my Eera.
But the choice of music on Tidal can’t be denied.
I find it interesting you think analog is so simple - when our forum is clogged up with anything but. Digital seems simple to me by comparison by buying a server and streaming Roon/Tidal.
With TT i see belt vs DD, suspension vs non suspension, $10k active platforms vs passive stands, $17k cartridges (!!), and $30k arms now which come in a zillion varieties (unipivot, fixed, even a blend of both). multiple arms with different VTA or no VTA. oh yeah, what plinth material should I use?
So for an average person in their 20s/30s, I can't see analog as being remotely simple. Factor in that setup is incredibly difficult with some arms and cartridges as well.
The above reply was not in comparison to turntables it was a reply to Steve's comment about ethernet servers being superior to the best CD player/transports which are plug & play.
Analog tech was mature and in the 50's and peaked by mid 60's, nothing new or format changes since then. Tonearm setup hasn't changed in 70 years either if people chose to complicate things is a different matter but it's fundamentally unchanged.
$ 15K is still a whole lot of money. As I said, I achieved far more important improvements elsewhere in my system for that money. A server couldn't possibly have made as much difference in resolution, with weaker links elsewhere in the chain.
And if someone says, you can beat a great transport with much less money spent on file replay: I'll believe it once I hear it, not before that day comes.
Sure, but my ears haven't heard it yet. Perhaps they will, some day in the future.
For the music server soup...would suggest that the roster of key "audiophile differentiating" ingredients is established...
1. microvolt ripple level LPS power...
2. low ppb OXCO clocks at key instances on the motherboards/USB/Ethernet timing/dispatch
3. material EMI/mechanical/vibration isolation
4. OS fettling/focusing.......whether Win 10/2016 or Linux...
that is jitter matters..but it aint the only variable to be resolved.
and as seems "normal" in our land...we've quite the price disparity on the solution provision....
(...) the only question is when you change from discs, not if. since the world is changing whether you like it or not. and at some future point, you will hear files surpass discs, then it won't be a big deal to change. or worth defending anymore.
I have seen the same type of argument being used on analog users changing to digital ...
Anyway I am not sure of that files will surpass disks every time and for everyone - it is a subjective matter, valuation depends on our preferences. I do not see computer audio developers trying to emulate the sound of our cherished transports.
Roger Nice tapemachines you have there C 37 Nice, how does,the ampex. 440 sound. I was tempted to buy one at a Nice price. Plus IT was An overhauled one ?
The ampex 440 is a very nice machine,possessing that famous Ampex midrange. I would look for a clean 440,one with the servo speed option for playing 30,15,7.5,and 3.3/4 speeds. The boards should be updated. See the ampex archives for many threads on the machine. These are my upgraded boards. A low cost giant killer, one of my favorites,but one must be committed and have access to a good tech or probably will be problematic.
Sure, if I'd be looking for a file player I'd be looking at an expensive one like yours -- but my fancy goes more in the direction of a Baetis with AES/EBU output. My point is that some seem to imply that any half-way decent computer set-up will beat any CD transport. This is just not true, I know much better. Some also hail the wonders of music exploration by streaming to the point where they seem to imply that everyone who isn't tickled by that lives in the stone age.
But honestly, since I don't have unlimited resources, I still have much bigger fish to fry than going file replay. Improvements in my system elsewhere (some still on order, after having heard demo in my system) have paid off big time and showed just what incredible resolution my CD set-up has. If I would have had put the same money into an expensive server instead I'd be nowhere close to that. If I have extra money to spare sometime, I may consider file replay. In a few years perhaps, right now my appetite is as low as ever.
The Baetis with AES/EBU is really good (in Goodwin's systems at least), and that's the future of digital signal transfer to a DAC for optimum sonic quality: files over a dedicated, optimized channel, not some noisy and jittery crap like USB or even ethernet. I do see the good transport eventually going the way of the dodo but not immediately (or at least not as long as Esoteric keeps churning out that VRDS beauties), but the bigger problem right now is two-fold: very few affordable and truly high-end transports at the moment and fewer in the future; and the cost of replacement with true high-end music servers with dedicated channels like the Baetis. Which also means, anytime anyone's still talking about USB and Ethernet I can only yawn.
The Eera Tentation uses a cheaper standard transport mech, but then beefs it up, and reinforces it to the Heavens, with its GyroPoint mechanism.
JackD201 knows how great it sounds.
$ 15K is still a whole lot of money. As I said, I achieved far more important improvements elsewhere in my system for that money. A server couldn't possibly have made as much difference in resolution, with weaker links elsewhere in the chain.
Why don't you try a 3k SGC or Innuous then? These are very well designed products, priced well, and sound exceptional. Or an Aurender N100h if you don't care about Roon. A $15k super server is hardly the default in the industry, nor should it be.
and you have no idea the resulting sonic difference as you haven't tried - its much bigger than cables, sorry to disappoint you.
BMCG, if your specs list is really what’s needed, no wonder cheaper streamers fail.
It looks like one really has to go to SGM or Pink Faun to match or exceed your list.
Now we’re talking £20k partnered w Dac8, £30k partnered w GG as examples of what’s needed to truly sound exemplary.
The Baetis with AES/EBU is really good (in Goodwin's systems at least), and that's the future of digital signal transfer to a DAC for optimum sonic quality: files over a dedicated, optimized channel, not some noisy and jittery crap like USB or even ethernet. I do see the good transport eventually going the way of the dodo but not immediately (or at least not as long as Esoteric keeps churning out that VRDS beauties), but the bigger problem right now is two-fold: very few affordable and truly high-end transports at the moment and fewer in the future; and the cost of replacement with true high-end music servers with dedicated channels like the Baetis. Which also means, anytime anyone's still talking about USB and Ethernet I can only yawn.
Would you consider i2s the solution to the legacy AES and SPDIF ports that still find their into modern “high end “ dacs? I know MSB, PS audio and some others have embraced this connection between transport and DAC.
For me personally, I wish I had enough CDs to warrant a stand alone transport. For anyone that doubts that red book CD is inferior to download or stream really should listen to the Spectral SDR-4000 SV.
Playing back rebook CDs on this transport in all Spectral system made me think twice about files/servers/etc...Are they worth the hassles Etc.. Although has many convienances and Roon/Tidal makes new music discovery possible that wasn’t before. Similar to Netflix streaming video.. I’ve expanded my tastes greatly in both audio and video because of streaming
But back to the compact disc. Perhaps CDs were never the problem all along? It was the playback equipment never reached the quality that we have today? Same thing can be said about analog playback with regards to the high end TT in recent years. Kronos, AF , etc..
