The Fremer lays an ostrich egg thread

System cost in no way represents quality and i do find when one describes a system by its cost as oppose to it's contents , a sure sign of cost envy and I'm sure you didn't carry your masters , i guess not , hence where we stand .....

Find a SOTA system , take your masters , report back ....
 
You are certainly entitled to your opinion of my ideas. However never having heard the prototype it seems that it's rather academic to you, you have no way of knowing what it sounds like. I presume you have a different analysis with some sort of technical writeup so that I can see where your point of view is coming from. I'm always interested in new ideas. Got a reference to it?

Recently I heard a very expensive sound system, one costing at least several hundred thousand dollars. I found it disappointing but not surprising. I'm not going to say whose it was or what it consisted of because that person is known to others on this site and identifying the equipment could identify the individual.

Sure we can discuss , i do need one clarification , i may need to read back , but did you not say you had to readjust your system for every recording and or track ..

Is this correct ....?
 
System cost in no way represents quality and i do find when one describes a system by its cost as oppose to it's contents , a sure sign of cost envy and I'm sure you didn't carry your masters , i guess not , hence where we stand .....

Find a SOTA system , take your masters , report back ....

"Mid-fi" is the derogatory term audiophiles seem to have invented for other people's expensive equipment they don't like. The discussion of the ML amplifier is a case in point. There seems to be a lot of disagreement about what the term "state of the art" means in this industry.
 
Sure we can discuss , i do need one clarification , i may need to read back , but did you not say you had to readjust your system for every recording and or track ..

Is this correct ....?

Yes that is correct. Spectral balance of recordings is so inconsistent that unless it is corrected for each recording, results can be terrible. A recording that has a collection taken from many different original source recordings from a vault, assemblages of other recordings like collections on a CD can vary from one track to the next. The illusion the machine creates is in part dependent on each recording having the proper spectral balance. CDs seem to show more variation than LPs but they're hardly immune. I think this is in part due to the fact that in the era when LPs were made, there were a limited number of monitor speaker models in use by major studios and it was SOP to equalize them frequently using a calibrated microphone and a 1/3 octave equalizer. CD's seem to be made by engineers who come more from an audiophile background. As a result there is no consistency, each recording having its own peculiar sonic signiture based on an unequalized monitor setup similar to an audiophile's home system. If I have anything resembling a reference, it's DG recordings but even there variations are conserable.

BTW, if you read the patent, ignore the first five or six sketches. They were part of an measuring instrument that was deleted because the Patent Office said it was a different art and would require a separate application. Only the sketches were somehow inadvertently left in by may attorney at the time.
 
Hello, Soundminded. You are OK with major adjustments that sometimes take days to perfect just to listen to one selection?

Tom
 
Hello, Soundminded. You are OK with major adjustments that sometimes take days to perfect just to listen to one selection?

Tom

It is frustrating without doubt. Usually where there is say two symphonies or two concerti on the same disc, each one will have a single group of settings. It's often difficult to find one setting that works for both unless they were done in the same take. It can't be helped, that's the nature of it. The other thing is that I get to a group of settings that sounds good, I come back later and then it's not what I remembered. It isn't until I leave it and come back and it still sounds right several times that I'm satisfied....until the next time. I guess my ears get used to hearing it a certain way, then I have to wait until I'm unused to it again. It's a repetitive process that kind of zooms in. Imagine those early color TV sets. You had to adjust color intensity, tint, brightness, and contrast for every channel. Now imagine a lot of them and every time you change one all the others seem to change with it. It kinda feels like that. For example, I set the RT time. Then I decide to increase the reverberant field level with respect to the direct field. That results in increasing RT so I have to back off. Altering the rate of treble falloff not only affects the perceived tone, it affects the sense of space. Decreasing the rate increases the sense of space but it also makes the sound brighter. That means back off on the input signal equalizer high end. If a commercial product were ever to come out of this, all such adjustments would have to be performed automatically, by the equipment iteslf based on coded instructions embedded in the software. It's simply beyond what any user could do. It sometimes feels like it's beyond what I can do too and I invented it ;)

Speaking about adjustments, I'm suprised audiophiles aren't more particular about the fact that there don't seem to be many things you can do with today's sound system to adjust them to room acoustics or to differences in recordings. A lot of people experiment with sound absorbing and reflecting panels but this adjusts the room to the system, not the system to the room. Lately there's been use of what's called "room correction." This is nothing more than automatic equalization. The problem with using this with conventional speakers is that the adjustment affects both the direct and reflected sound you hear, there's no way to adjust them independently of each other. And then how do you deal with variables of recordings? Does this mean expensive systems can only play a limited number of recordings that are suitable for them? I once asked JA on another site considering that he will tweak a 64 band graphic equalizer to within 1/10 db (he claims his hearing is that sensitive) but he would never consider budging even a bass or treble control on a preamp to tame a shrill recording or a boomy one or to brighten up one that's dull or muffled or improve one that's thin. How can audiophiles accept such limitations. And then they are constantly swapping these expensive cables to find one that "works for them." It all seems very strange to me. First you're convinced not to use an equalizer, a very powerful and effective tool but then you struggle to get the same result by means that are hit or miss, expensive, and you never know if they'll work. Why is that OK?

Yes it is hard even for a well practiced ear. It's a skill that can be acquired by practice and experimentation. The alternative is to accept whatever comes out...or throw a blanket over the speaker ;)
 
It is frustrating without doubt. Usually where there is say two symphonies or two concerti on the same disc, each one will have a single group of settings. It's often difficult to find one setting that works for both unless they were done in the same take. It can't be helped, that's the nature of it. The other thing is that I get to a group of settings that sounds good, I come back later and then it's not what I remembered. It isn't until I leave it and come back and it still sounds right several times that I'm satisfied....until the next time. I guess my ears get used to hearing it a certain way, then I have to wait until I'm unused to it again. It's a repetitive process that kind of zooms in. Imagine those early color TV sets. You had to adjust color intensity, tint, brightness, and contrast for every channel. Now imagine a lot of them and every time you change one all the others seem to change with it. It kinda feels like that. For example, I set the RT time. Then I decide to increase the reverberant field level with respect to the direct field. That results in increasing RT so I have to back off. Altering the rate of treble falloff not only affects the perceived tone, it affects the sense of space. Decreasing the rate increases the sense of space but it also makes the sound brighter. That means back off on the input signal equalizer high end. If a commercial product were ever to come out of this, all such adjustments would have to be performed automatically, by the equipment iteslf based on coded instructions embedded in the software. It's simply beyond what any user could do. It sometimes feels like it's beyond what I can do too and I invented it ;)

Speaking about adjustments, I'm suprised audiophiles aren't more particular about the fact that there don't seem to be many things you can do with today's sound system to adjust them to room acoustics or to differences in recordings. A lot of people experiment with sound absorbing and reflecting panels but this adjusts the room to the system, not the system to the room. Lately there's been use of what's called "room correction." This is nothing more than automatic equalization. The problem with using this with conventional speakers is that the adjustment affects both the direct and reflected sound you hear, there's no way to adjust them independently of each other. And then how do you deal with variables of recordings? Does this mean expensive systems can only play a limited number of recordings that are suitable for them? I once asked JA on another site considering that he will tweak a 64 band graphic equalizer to within 1/10 db (he claims his hearing is that sensitive) but he would never consider budging even a bass or treble control on a preamp to tame a shrill recording or a boomy one or to brighten up one that's dull or muffled or improve one that's thin. How can audiophiles accept such limitations. And then they are constantly swapping these expensive cables to find one that "works for them." It all seems very strange to me. First you're convinced not to use an equalizer, a very powerful and effective tool but then you struggle to get the same result by means that are hit or miss, expensive, and you never know if they'll work. Why is that OK?

Yes it is hard even for a well practiced ear. It's a skill that can be acquired by practice and experimentation. The alternative is to accept whatever comes out...or throw a blanket over the speaker ;)
This sounds almost like a form of performance art. What do you do if you just want to blow through a dozen albums in an afternoon or evening and enjoy them? I mean, I'm a little neurotic about the tubes, and cartridge, etc. but compared to what you seem to go through, it's like I'm doing a boombox! (And i mean that in a kind way). :)
 
This sounds almost like a form of performance art. What do you do if you just want to blow through a dozen albums in an afternoon or evening and enjoy them? I mean, I'm a little neurotic about the tubes, and cartridge, etc. but compared to what you seem to go through, it's like I'm doing a boombox! (And i mean that in a kind way). :)

Once optimal settings are found, I record them so I can get back to them again. I can make rough approximate adjustments fairly quickly sometimes. I do get lucky. There are other sound systems around my house I can listen to also. In fact there's equipment all over the house. Of course they don't do the same thing but there are times when I'm just too lazy to be bothered.
 
Going to the extreme of adjusting a system for each piece seems to me a deal breaker and it might be for most. I do also have a question. How do I know what adjustments to be made? Most of the time information about how the recording was made is scant. If it is a matter of taste (I am not saying that it is, but it could well be) then we are back to the "preferences" argument .. Another person might then prefer a two-channel reproduction.

I suppose that digital might take us there one day.. Certain cues (spatial for example) could be encoded in the media to be processed by the reproduction chain.. I believe this currently possible..Problem is : Is there a market?
 
Going to the extreme of adjusting a system for each piece seems to me a deal breaker and it might be for most. I do also have a question. How do I know what adjustments to be made? Most of the time information about how the recording was made is scant. If it is a matter of taste (I am not saying that it is, but it could well be) then we are back to the "preferences" argument .. Another person might then prefer a two-channel reproduction.

I suppose that digital might take us there one day.. Certain cues (spatial for example) could be encoded in the media to be processed by the reproduction chain.. I believe this currently possible..Problem is : Is there a market?

Very good observation and question. It is unlikely this could ever become a commercial product. It would cost a great deal to develop it. There would be a mountain of engineering problems to solve. You couldn't use your current library of recordings, all of the critical decisions would have to be made for you. Even how loud it plays is critical and not as easy an adjustment as you'd think.

I don't think the term "accuracy" is appropriate in this case. I don't recall if I pointed out in my initial description that because there is no data for the place the recording was made (there is no data suitable for this model for anyplace yet because the instrument to obtain it hasn't been built or proven itself yet) the best I can do is "convincing." So there is no one right simulation just as there is no one right seat, no one right concert hall. So how do I make adjustments? Memory. I try to remember what I heard live. I try to make recordings sound like what I remember hearing. One day I'm going to make a pilgramage to Boston to hear Symphony Hall (and the BSO too BTW :) ) According to Beranek and other "experts" that's the best room in the USA for listening to music and one of the two or three best in the world. That's my goal, to make my sound system sound to me like Boston Symphony Hall before I die. :D
 
So, we have a forked-road thing going on here. On one hand, most all of us deal with commercial equipment that provides the standard approach to stereo or multichannel. On the other hand, we have bespoke-engineered designs that seek to rectify the identified shortcomings of typical gear. It's safe to say that we absolutely have interest in one-off products that offer a unique view of audio reproduction. It's also safe to say that the rest of us will work at getting the most out of our mainstream gear.

Lee
 
So if i was to bring a recording over , what are you adjusting for , what is your reference ...?

That's an interesting question. In Beranek's two papers comparing measurements of concert halls and opera houses to preferences by golden ears, there was hardly unanimous agreement. His ranking was based on a statistical analysis but he admits with other surveys the orders could have been different. Yet he maintains that while the ranking isn't absolute, there is mostly agreement within three distinct groups at different quality level. The raw data is given in a coded form so that the individuals who participated in his surveys can't be identified. Von Karajan in one interview I saw expressed slight preference for Boston over Vienna because it has slightly shorter RT. I think I'd probably go the other way, I've aways been a reverberation freak all of my life. There are definite tradeoffs. Halls that have short RTs sound dry and lifeless to me. OTOH, those with RTs that are too long lack clarity and definiton. I'd say balance. I'd say about 2/3 to 3/4 of the way back in the orchestra seats at Carnegie, at least the way it used to be. Carnegie is a big room, 900,000 cubic feet. Yet its RT isn't much different than other major halls, about 2.0 seconds at 1 Khz. I also agree with Barenk's conclusions about BQI (binaural quality index.) Space is kind of the final frontier. But too much becomes cavernous. (Works great for cathedrals. The longest RT I can achieve is 6.5 seconds for pipe organs and choral works.) My ears/brain have become attuned to the various parameters I can control. Getting the tone right is very important to me. I want to hear instruments as they are heard live. In short...I want it all. So bottom line, what is my reference? My memory of how I think it ought to sound live. That's why I have to keep going to these damned concerts, to refresh my memory :)
 
Nevertheless, when you really think about it don't most people here basically agree with Soundminded? Certainly those audiophiles in any way into vintage would agree. Even those of us who prefer modern equipment will most likely agree that improvements over the last 30+ years are incremental at best and haven't brought us dramatically closer to reproduced sound equalling live sound.

I don't agree with Soundminded in the least. I'm very pleased with the two systems I own, both as tools by which to evaluate other components and to listen to music for fun, which is what I doubt sm is having much of. I think if you're music system is that much of a hassle, you should spend your money on something else, but then again I suspect the OCD thing keeps this kind of person from enjoying much of anything. Too bad.
 
You are not an engineer, are you? Engineers idea of fun is exactly what he is doing...making his baby sing as close to the real thing as he can. Anyway,hes got gear all over the house to listen to if he feels the need. Maybe someone will read that patent and it will spark an idea that will help out the industry some day.....there fore, thanks Soundminded for publicising your information.

Well this would be great if SM was actually contributing something. All I'm getting from this conversation is "I wouldn't do it that way.." Anyone can do that. I can do that and so can you.

Being that SM has brought nothing to the party in terms of commercial product, I have a tough time taking any of this seriously. If what he's talking about is so amazing, I find it tough to believe that no one is interested in it commercially. Personally (and I know this is harsh) I'm really tired of armchair engineers being dismissive of what's available.

A month to optimize a system for one track, really?

I call shenanigans.
 
Well this would be great if SM was actually contributing something. All I'm getting from this conversation is "I wouldn't do it that way.." Anyone can do that. I can do that and so can you.

Being that SM has brought nothing to the party in terms of commercial product, I have a tough time taking any of this seriously. If what he's talking about is so amazing, I find it tough to believe that no one is interested in it commercially. Personally (and I know this is harsh) I'm really tired of armchair engineers being dismissive of what's available.

A month to optimize a system for one track, really?

I call shenanigans.

Jeff: SM is pursuing something that's interesting. It may not be what most of us are doing, and it may not be user-friendly, but I'm interested in learning from it, and hearing his views, as long as he acknowledges the fact that, for the vast majority of us who are serious about the pursuit of reproduced music, we are also pursuing an elusive ideal based on existing commercially available equipment. Mike L. made a pretty good contribution earlier by pointing out that a lot has to do with the room in the first instance. And I think most of us here acknowledge that set-up is critical. Perhaps there is less commonality on 'synergy' among components, wire, etc. but in our own way, we also devote a fair amount of attention to 'getting it right.' Perhaps not to the length that SM is- it's like that movie based on 100 different comedians telling the same joke- there is a certain level of perfection achieved in playing one song perfectly. I guess I'm more sanguine about the whole thing, partly because I have known people in my life (not necessarily in audio) that are driven to extremes in the pursuit of something that is quite singular. On the other hand, if SM is pulling our collective legs, I guess the joke is on me.
But, I'm OK with that too.
 
You are not an engineer, are you? Engineers idea of fun is exactly what he is doing...making his baby sing as close to the real thing as he can. Anyway,hes got gear all over the house to listen to if he feels the need. Maybe someone will read that patent and it will spark an idea that will help out the industry some day.....there fore, thanks Soundminded for publicising your information.
Is there a patent? I missed that. I'd love to read it if it's been identified.
 
Is there a patent? I missed that. I'd love to read it if it's been identified.

The system is classified as an Electronic Environmental Acoustic Simulator and was described in vague and general terms in my now expired patent 4,332,979
 
"Mid-fi" is the derogatory term audiophiles seem to have invented for other people's expensive equipment they don't like. The discussion of the ML amplifier is a case in point. There seems to be a lot of disagreement about what the term "state of the art" means in this industry.

Well I don't know if you are a master of innovative playback system design, but you have mastered understatement. :)
 

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