The Fremer lays an ostrich egg thread

One does not need to have Mike's experience with high-end gear to understand the limitations, or one's opinion of the limitations, of stereo. The difference between what a SOTA system, whatever that may mean to you, and a quality "midfi" stereo is incremental compared to the difference between any stereo and surround. I imagine it is pretty incremental compared to SM's system as well......

......Tim

just to be clear; i'm not inferring anyone needs to have an expensive system to be credible. or even vast experience with gear. only that the voracity of posting opinions needs to be supported by appropriate experience on the subject being discussed. this is just basic common sense.

SM asked for this scrutiny by being controversial.

i did not ask him to describe his system, i asked him to describe specifically what he thought got closest to his ideal. he came up with his system. so we are left to each consider that in light of the opinions he has pushed.

too much noise, not enough credible signal to support it.
 
What I'm saying is incremental is the difference between good "midfi" (a term of questionable value) and "SOTO" (equally dubious). For the sake of clarity, let's bipass those subjective, judgemental terms altogether. Let's just say the differences between quality stereo systems are minor compared to the difference between stereo and surround. I suspect the difference between conventional stereo and what SM is doing are as significant. Now, we will get lots of people come in here behind this statement to defend their investments by insisting that the difference between a high-end system and an ordinary "quality stereo" is stunningly obvious to anyone with ears. OK. Not the point.

Tim

One man's minor is another's major ..... :)
 
:D
The patent is expired.

Lee
Patents enter the public domain for a variety of reasons. They do have a natural lifespan. The question is whether the motive scientific,ieproprotary or both.
 
I don't think the term "accuracy" is appropriate in this case. I don't recall if I pointed out in my initial description that because there is no data for the place the recording was made (there is no data suitable for this model for anyplace yet because the instrument to obtain it hasn't been built or proven itself yet) the best I can do is "convincing." So there is no one right simulation just as there is no one right seat, no one right concert hall. So how do I make adjustments? Memory. I try to remember what I heard live. I try to make recordings sound like what I remember hearing. One day I'm going to make a pilgramage to Boston to hear Symphony Hall (and the BSO too BTW ) According to Beranek and other "experts" that's the best room in the USA for listening to music and one of the two or three best in the world. That's my goal, to make my sound system sound to me like Boston Symphony Hall before I die.
aoundminded Post # 213

Emphasis supplied
 
I think anyone trying to recreate the event in their own living room is chasing a pipe dream. Unless you were there the same time the recording was made, it's only going to be an idea of the way you think it may have sounded!
 
I think anyone trying to recreate the event in their own living room is chasing a pipe dream. Unless you were there the same time the recording was made, it's only going to be an idea of what you think it may have sounded!

Asking this question with all candor. A a mastering engineer you have been part of the creative process. What should we go after? What is the purpose of our often expensive sound reproduction system (that includes the room)?
 
Asking this question with all candor. A a mastering engineer you have been part of the creative process. What should we go after? What is the purpose of our often expensive sound reproduction system (that includes the room)?

Our job (recording/mixing/mastering engineers) is to convey the emotion of the artist to the end user. Hopefully the artist is a part of that process in each and every step along the way and can make sure it doesn't deviate from the message they want to deliver.
The mastering engineer is the last step in the chain. We try to emulate the best end users system as closely as possible so that what we hear is what you should hear.
 
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He has no commercial interests or industry affiliations that have been disclosed to us.

Lee

As is my practice I take him at his word.
 
I think anyone trying to recreate the event in their own living room is chasing a pipe dream. Unless you were there the same time the recording was made, it's only going to be an idea of the way you think it may have sounded!

Unless like in the old days, audiophiles made their own recordings :)

I also thought that's what gave Dave Wilson a leg up on the competition having made his own recordings and then using them for assessing the sound of his speakers.
 
Well this would be great if SM was actually contributing something. All I'm getting from this conversation is "I wouldn't do it that way.." Anyone can do that. I can do that and so can you.

Being that SM has brought nothing to the party in terms of commercial product, I have a tough time taking any of this seriously. If what he's talking about is so amazing, I find it tough to believe that no one is interested in it commercially. Personally (and I know this is harsh) I'm really tired of armchair engineers being dismissive of what's available.

A month to optimize a system for one track, really?

I call shenanigans.

"Being that SM has brought nothing to the party in terms of commercial product"

That's right, I have nothing to sell to you. Got any qualified potential investors? The last one I contacted was a large well known international company that has the resources to turn this into a product if that is possible. And it's a big if. I wrote their CEO and got a reply from their lawyer who told me they weren't interested because the patent had expired. The previous time I contacted them I got no reply at all. Same with all the others. This happend after I aborted preparation of 7 related patents having seen how it was all Apple Computer could do to defend itself from infringement by Samsung. The patent process IMO no longer can protect small inventors from large corporate predators. It boils down to a battle of money. OTOH, there is a smug satisfaction knowing I have something that may be one of a kind.

However, I have brought you something else, an idea that is not merely a new variant on an old idea but an entirely novel strategy. Every sound system you have probably ever heard or probably know about from the earliest wax cylinders to the newest high end digital whiz-bang relies on the same strategy, namely capture, store, retrieve, reproduce. This idea uses a different strategy; capture, store, retrieve, reconstruct. Why? Because the reverberant sound field scientists who've measured it tell us is the overwhelming preponderance of what we hear yet little of it gets on to a recording, what there is of it can't be entirely segregated from the first arriving sounds, and it is not in a usable form. The closest exception, binaural recording fails because it does not capture the vector nature of the reverberant field. This is critical to the model. How is it done? By reconstructing the mathematical relationship between the sound fields arriving at the microphones and the expected field arriving at the listener. This is what the mathematical model tells us and that is the real crux of the invention. The relationship is recontructed using an analog computer or its real time digital equivalent. The current prototype is a hybrid. The model is presented in the patent in graphical form. It shows relative to the first arriving sound that each arriving reflection has a relative directional angle of arrival, time of arrival, intensity, and relative spectral change.

In a laboratory using an entirely different and far more complex embodiment of the concept, in principle any sound field could be reproduced to any degree of accuracy desired. But from commercial recordings that contain their own reflections, in real rooms that impose their own acoustics, and within constraints of practicality, complexity, and cost, a specific seat in a specific place cannot be reliably duplicated. In fact given my initial expectations, what surprised me about the first prototye wasn't that it worked as well as it did but that it worked at all.

Anyway, I've given you something new to think about. I'd add this. The model strongly suggests that this approach is the only one that has any chance of working. If for no other reason, nobody has figured out a way to record the reverberant field as an array of incident vectors without recording the first arriving sound at the same time or in a way that it can later be separated.
 
Anyway, I've given you something new to think about. I'd add this. The model strongly suggests that this approach is the only one that has any chance of working. If for no other reason, nobody has figured out a way to record the reverberant field as an array of incident vectors without recording the first arriving sound at the same time or in a way that it can later be separated.

I thought this was already called "Convolution Reverb". There are many plugins that use these impulse responses to emulate any space. You can also use de-convolution and maximum length sequences.

With these impulse responses you can vary Pre-delay, EQ, dampening, attack and a whole slew of other adjustments.
 
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Myles, please stop putting words in my mouth.

How am I coming to my own [baseless] conclusion based on what I've told you?

Never said baseless, you said, baseless.

You simply didn't "get-it" ... just the same way you didn't get my comment about MF honesty (or his take on azimuth & VTA). In fact, not only did you not "get-it", you polarized my statement 180 degrees away from reality.

Well done Myles, do you always debate like this?

What other conclusion can one come to reading your comment, an honest appraisal.

Ummm ... lets see ... how about a realistic conclusion based on the context at hand, without your inevitable spin.

OK, I realize this is beyond you at this point ... so let me help you with the obvious ...

I said "... an honest appraisal." directly to answer the question at hand, which therefore indicates that I think the gear was in fact sent to MF for HIS honest appraisal. The rest of my statement ("establishing intent") had NOTHING to do with MF, although I can only imagine that won't stop you from spinning it into something completely different.

Therefore, I never implied any dishonesty on MF part. YOU, and only YOU, put that in my mouth!

Please stop!

Now as far as the latter, not when you sing his praises.

I "sang" his praises?

The same way I thought MF "dishonest"?

Guilty by mere association ... am I?

tb1
 
just to be clear; i'm not inferring anyone needs to have an expensive system to be credible. or even vast experience with gear. only that the voracity of posting opinions needs to be supported by appropriate experience on the subject being discussed. this is just basic common sense.

SM asked for this scrutiny by being controversial.

i did not ask him to describe his system, i asked him to describe specifically what he thought got closest to his ideal. he came up with his system. so we are left to each consider that in light of the opinions he has pushed.

too much noise, not enough credible signal to support it.

My apologies, Mike. I didn't mean to imply that you were saying that. I just used you as an example because your experience with high-end gear is about as deep as anyone's here.

Tim
 
Let's examine the ridiculousness of SM's bone of contention that all the recordings that we [audiophiles] listen to were made by audiophile engineers. Are you kidding? That patently ignores the history of recording engineers who until recently all had their roots originally as musicians and then switched to recording. That also ignores the fact the sound produced is in large part dictated by the producer (and artist), who in every case I know of, is or was a musician.

Let's look deeper. Were Rudy van Gelder, Roy DuNann, Robert Fine, Lewis Layton and crew, Kenneth Wilkinson and Arthur Haddy, Mark Aubort, the Columbia 30th St. jazz team, and the teams from many other labels musicians or audiophile engineers first? The musical theme extends all the way down to the mastering engineers.

Finally, isn't the recreation of the original event what these renowned individuals strove for (then not now) --not some wowee zowie, special effects?

I think they were striving to get good sound on tape.

In the case of studio recordings, regardless of technique, the original event was the recording session itself. The outcome - the sound, not the performances - is the result of a lot of details and decisions, many of which could only be made in the studio. They couldn't happen at all in a performance situation. A very simple example: The engineer could choose to isolate the lead instrument -- completely, in a booth, or through the use of moveable baffles -- to keep the other instruments from bleeding into the mic. This bleed of instruments into the microphones of others, by the way, can create something similar akin to reverb (or total chaos). But this is a "reverb" that has little to do with the ambient space you're performing in. You can get bleed in an anechoic chamber. Allow a bit of controlled bleed and you can get a lively, sound. Isolate the instrument and it plays in a quiet space where you can...horror...give it the space you want that instrument to have.

When an engineer, in the golden age or now, makes that decision. or the decision to use a specific mic on a voice or instrument, or chooses to add a bit of reverb to the high hat but not to the kick drum....what original event is he trying to recreate?

Perhaps he and the musicians are creating the event together? Maybe the recording itself is the original event?

And by the way, none of the above is wowie zowie special effects. These are all straight out of the basic toolbox of the golden age of analog recordings.

Tim
 
Guys, please don't get personal. We will have to close the thread soon if members can't be pushing each other instead of discussing the topic.
 
We will have to close the thread soon

No problem, when my original contributions are consistently spun out of context ... well ... the entire debate then becomes an exercise in defensive futility.

tb1
 
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I don't agree with all of Fremer's sound scores on the Beatles but he is usually pretty accurate and I think he does his best to call em as he sees them.

What I posted on Hoffman on the Beatles was the following order of sound quality imho:

1. UK originals (Parlaphone>one box EMI>two box EMI)

2. 2012 Remasters on LP (IF you get a good pressing and that is sadly a big IF) and 24/44.1 USB stick (more sampling rate please).

3. 2009 CDs (Mono>Stereo version). Maybe some MFSLs, some Japanese but caveat emptor.

4. Capitol LPs. These generally SUCK and are NOT recommended.
 
I would add that Michael Fremer has done quite a lot for the vinyl resurgence so he would be ultra low on my list of enemies on a bad day even if there were a good reason to criticize. And he is a very nice and funny guy in person. And he really cares about LP quality.

Just my two cents. :)
 
I would add that Michael Fremer has done quite a lot for the vinyl resurgence so he would be ultra low on my list of enemies on a bad day even if there were a good reason to criticize. And he is a very nice and funny guy in person. And he really cares about LP quality.

Just my two cents. :)

It's a matter of record that I very much appreciate MF ... having said just that here and on other boards ... on a very consistent basis. One can try and twist that reality ... however ... that would be truly "dishonest".

tb1
 

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