The Half Life of Expectation Bias

[microstrip]

With respect to you and Mr. Toole, I am not much concerned with statistics as I'm listening, or any other time for that matter, but that's me. YMMV

I have and do enjoy growing my system and trying to make it better with every step. I hope that never stops as it brings me great pleasure! I love cueing up a record and hearing all the detail no other means could give me, but that doesn't mean my enjoyment of the music is greater. Sometimes it is and other times it's not. I fail to understand why only a top-notch system can provide more enjoyment.

I am not concerned with statistics when I am listening, but I am when posting and reading opinions. And it seems to me there is a misunderstanding in one important point - I am not addressing top notch systems, just improvements. I am not telling that (and I think no one is doing it) only a top-notch system can provide more enjoyment. , but that in general a better system will provide more musical enjoyment.

 

[microstrip]

Context. My point is some music is best (an often ONLY) enjoyed in a certain listening context.

Surely. But probably that is not the music you listen most of the time. IMHO we must separate what are exceptions from general trends. I have told before that when having a drink in a bar with friends in a bar I prefer the enveloping sound of a Bose 901 to my system.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

I am not concerned with statistics when I am listening, but I am when posting and reading opinions. And it seems to me there is a misunderstanding in one important point - I am not addressing top notch systems, just improvements. I am not telling that (and I think no one is doing it) only a top-notch system can provide more enjoyment. , but that in general a better system will provide more musical enjoyment.

Enjoyment of better sound reproduction perhaps, but not necessarily the enjoyment of a better experience. The delivery of music is not only about sound reproduction, it is a combination of various factors and it's that combination that brings us our most enjoyable experiences.

I have never heard a better version of "She Loves You" then when I was 12 yrs old and drove back on a schoolbus with the radio blaring and sitting next to a girl that I really liked ( we ended up sharing a first kiss). No matter how good it is played on any system with the best pressing...it can't compare to the enjoyment I experienced then. That's the day I truly discovered music and the effect it had on me.

Since then and because of it I have realized that music really is the driver and not something I should buy because it may sound good. Music touches me, it tells me things, it lets me feel things, it makes me think, it makes me smile, cry and laugh.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

I think we have all experienced audio shows where the supposed best stuff is, and going from room to room and not being "touched" by what we heard, then again in others being touched, something connects, and it may or may not be an actual more expensive system. There is a lot of color out there, and we know when we hear the color we like. Its not a price thing, and maybe not even a music thing, it is a THING though, whatever that is, that turns us on to the sound.

Whatever that THING is, it's an individual appreciation of it. Nothing wrong with that and it works for me...different strokes as they say.

 

[DaveyF]

IMVHO, there are some people on this forum ( and others) that are "gear heads" first and last. There are others who are more into the "love" of the music, whether it be played back on the "He-Man" System or on a clock radio...( or even an iPod )
Not saying there is anything bad about that, just saying.
I believe John and I happen to fall more into the latter description...Personally IF I could get my iPod to sound like real "live" music, I would be a happy man. Since it takes a lot of great gear to get the sound...well that's why I am in the hobby.

BTW, IF you want to really get GREAT pleasure from music, I believe creating it yourself is a GREAT way to go....something that more of you should try...again IMVHO.

 

[microstrip]

Enjoyment of better sound reproduction perhaps, but not necessarily the enjoyment of a better experience. The delivery of music is not only about sound reproduction, it is a combination of various factors and it's that combination that brings us our most enjoyable experiences.

I have never heard a better version of "She Loves You" then when I was 12 yrs old and drove back on a schoolbus with the radio blaring and sitting next to a girl that I really liked ( we ended up sharing a first kiss). No matter how good it is played on any system with the best pressing...it can't compare to the enjoyment I experienced then. That's the day I truly discovered music and the effect it had on me.

Since then and because of it I have realized that music really is the driver and not something I should buy because it may sound good. Music touches me, it tells me things, it lets me feel things, it makes me think, it makes me smile, cry and laugh.

You are referring to unique experiences - something very different from the objective of sound reproduction in our listening rooms. Do you expect that a great system should make you feel like you were 12 again? Anyway I still can not understand why you upgrade your system, what motivates you to get the best pressings.

I understand that most people have such connection with music that they do not care about systems - many music lovers say so. But they do not consider themselves audiophiles or have interest in audio forums.

 

[treitz3]

BTW, IF you want to really get GREAT pleasure from music, I believe creating it yourself is a GREAT way to go....something that more of you should try...again IMVHO.

Ha! Are you kidding me? I couldn't hold a note on an instrument if the note was welded on.

Tom

 

[DaveyF]

Tom, Perhaps that's an expectation bias, LOL.

Seriously though, I happen to believe that all people have an innate musical ability, some more than others I grant you, BUT all have some ability. You may be surprised IF you were to try a musical instrument of some sort, how much enjoyment you would get. BTW, I'm NOT talking about being able to pick up an instrument and play what is referred to as a "cover". Instead, what I am talking about is the ability to pick up an instrument and make some sounds that you enjoy and make you happy.
As you can see, I have a VERY different opinion of the way music can and should be made/taught than the vast majority of people involved in the teaching of an instrument.
Here's a thought....when you pick up a musical instrument, who are you playing that instrument for....yourself or an audience?????

 

[microstrip]

(...) I believe John and I happen to fall more into the latter description...Personally IF I could get my iPod to sound like real "live" music, I would be a happy man. Since it takes a lot of great gear to get the sound...well that's why I am in the hobby. (...)

If I could afford listening life to half of my recordings every time I want to I would be a happy man. Can I now group with John and you?
BTW, I promise that I will not play any instrument or sing ...

 

[rockitman]

Ha! Are you kidding me? I couldn't hold a note on an instrument if the note was welded on.

Tom

While I can play guitar and get tremendous satisfaction from it...in no way can it substitute for hearing master/accomplished musicians playing composed music that we enjoy from pre-recorded media.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

You are referring to unique experiences - something very different from the objective of sound reproduction in our listening rooms. Do you expect that a great system should make you feel like you were 12 again? Anyway I still can not understand why you upgrade your system, what motivates you to get the best pressings.

I understand that most people have such connection with music that they do not care about systems - many music lovers say so. But they do not consider themselves audiophiles or have interest in audio forums.

Let me try to clear this up, because I think we have a misunderstanding here. I haven't in any of my posts said that I don't appreciate good sound from a good system and in my case mostly playback of vinyl. The only thing I've tried to convey is that it's not essential for me. I enjoy upgrading my rig and buying audiophile pressings because I truly do appreciate the benefits and I also get a good deal of satisfaction and enjoyment from it. In my world, the two live very nicely together.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I think listening to/enjoying sound and music are two separate things. They're not mutually exclusive but they are different. I think some people are having trouble separating them, though I hope they have a lot less trouble doing that experientially than they do intellectually. I can be capable of thoroughly, completely enjoying great music without a highly resolving system, and I can still enjoy listening to music, and enhanced sound on a highly resolving system. Is that hard to understand? Should I just buy a tabletop radio and be done with it? I can only conclude that people who reach those kinds of conclusions are just being argumentative or they don't understand what music is; they have it confused with sound reproduction. Rhythm, melody, composition, emotion, communication, soul...these are the things that make music. And none of them have anything to do with system resolution, unless the system is so hideously distorted that they cannot be heard.

Tim

 

[mep]

I think listening to/enjoying sound and music are two separate things. They're not mutually exclusive but they are different. I think some people are having trouble separating them, though I hope they have a lot less trouble doing that experientially than they do intellectually. I can be capable of thoroughly, completely enjoying great music without a highly resolving system, and I can still enjoy listening to music, and enhanced sound on a highly resolving system. Is that hard to understand? Should I just buy a tabletop radio and be done with it? I can only conclude that people who reach those kinds of conclusions are just being argumentative or they don't understand what music is; they have it confused with sound reproduction. Rhythm, melody, composition, emotion, communication, soul...these are the things that make music. And none of them have anything to do with system resolution, unless the system is so hideously distorted that they cannot be heard.

Tim

I couldn't disagree more unless I disagreed some more with a cherry on top. This whole line of reasoning is getting ridiculous. Let's have a contest to see who can enjoy music the most using the worst possible 'system' to play it back. I'll start: I derive the exact same pleasure listening to music over a crystal radio set that I built myself using $5.00 worth of parts from Radio Shack as I do from a system that cost 6 figures. And if you don't understand that, you aren't a true music lover like I am.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I couldn't disagree more unless I disagreed some more with a cherry on top. This whole line of reasoning is getting ridiculous. Let's have a contest to see who can enjoy music the most using the worst possible 'system' to play it back. I'll start: I derive the exact same pleasure listening to music over a crystal radio set that I built myself using $5.00 worth of parts from Radio Shack as I do from a system that cost 6 figures. And if you don't understand that, you aren't a true music lover like I am.

Yes, by all means, let's make it absurd enough to support you argument. Or just disagree. That has happened before.

Tim

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

It's pretty clear to me that those who's primary and foremost interest is music are better off moving on. I thought that maybe there would be an appreciation of our thinking without ridicule, but obviously I made a major miscalculation.

 

[microstrip]

I think listening to/enjoying sound and music are two separate things. They're not mutually exclusive but they are different. I think some people are having trouble separating them, though I hope they have a lot less trouble doing that experientially than they do intellectually. I can be capable of thoroughly, completely enjoying great music without a highly resolving system, and I can still enjoy listening to music, and enhanced sound on a highly resolving system. Is that hard to understand? Should I just buy a tabletop radio and be done with it? I can only conclude that people who reach those kinds of conclusions are just being argumentative or they don't understand what music is; they have it confused with sound reproduction. Rhythm, melody, composition, emotion, communication, soul...these are the things that make music. And none of them have anything to do with system resolution, unless the system is so hideously distorted that they cannot be heard.

Tim

Sounds you enjoy can be music. We should realize that music is an art and the objective of sound reproduction is communicating the art.

Although I could consider a few exceptional cases of people whose main concern is trying to reproduce fireworks, trains, applause and a few CD test tracks, I do not know of any audiophile whose objective is just enjoying sound.

BTW, the argument being debated is that better sound reproduction using high quality systems can bring better musical enjoyment to audiophiles, not that there is no musical enjoyment without high quality audio systems.

 

[mep]

Sounds you enjoy can be music. We should realize that music is an art and the objective of sound reproduction is communicating the art.

Although I could consider a few exceptional cases of people whose main concern is trying to reproduce fireworks, trains, applause and a few CD test tracks, I do not know of any audiophile whose objective is just enjoying sound.

BTW, the argument being debated is that better sound reproduction using high quality systems can bring better musical enjoyment to audiophiles, not that there is no musical enjoyment without high quality audio systems.

Thank you. That point has been lost with people confusing the ability to enjoy music no matter what it is being played over vice being able to take that enjoyment to a higher level with a high quality system.

 

[Ron Party]

It's pretty clear to me that those who's primary and foremost interest is music are better off moving on. I thought that maybe there would be an appreciation of our thinking without ridicule, but obviously I made a major miscalculation.

FWIW, John, I not only completely understand your viewpoint, I also completely agree with it. I've had discussions with Steve concerning how disheartening it is that in this forum there is IMO nowhere near enough discussion about music but an overabundance of discussion about the format of the music or the gear. IIRC, I think you even started a thread about that very topic. There is and ought to be room for both but for a variety of reasons it does not happen. Sad.

BTW, the argument being debated is that better sound reproduction using high quality systems can bring better musical enjoyment to audiophiles, not that there is no musical enjoyment without high quality audio systems.

That point has been lost with people confusing the ability to enjoy music no matter what it is being played over vice being able to take that enjoyment to a higher level with a high quality system.

There is a risk here, one that has been raised and commented upon by many others more brilliant that me, of elitism.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Sounds you enjoy can be music. We should realize that music is an art and the objective of sound reproduction is communicating the art.

I didn't say "sounds," micro, I said "sound," as in sound reproduction. And the reproduction of sound is, of course, the objective of sound reproduction systems. No matter how much you tweak and "synergize," you are only an observer, fiddling with the tools of observation. You are not communicating art because you have the means to buy high end or the desire to manipulate the wires and components. The artist communicates the art. You have no part in it. All of your tweaking an fiddling, all the money spent does not turn you music reproduction system into a musical instrument or you into any semblance of a musical artist.

No level of manipulation of gear turns listening into the creative process or reproduction into communication. You're still just a listener. Your gear is still just gear. The communication still belongs to the artist.

Tim

 

[microstrip]

I didn't say "sounds," micro, I said "sound," as in sound reproduction. And the reproduction of sound is, of course, the objective of sound reproduction systems. No matter how much you tweak and "synergize," you are only an observer, fiddling with the tools of observation. You are not communicating art because you have the means to buy high end or the desire to manipulate the wires and components. The artist communicates the art. You have no part in it. All of your tweaking an fiddling, all the money spent does not turn you music reproduction system into a musical instrument or you into any semblance of a musical artist.

No level of manipulation of gear turns listening into the creative process or reproduction into communication. You're still just a listener. Your gear is still just gear. The communication still belongs to the artist.
Tim

No Tim, you are just playing with words and as usual changing other people words and mine and then answering to the manipulated and distorted ideas. The process of sound reproduction achieves the communication with the listener. The audiophile (and many others) participation in the process is assembling the system for reproducing the message and listening. Happily we have the contribution of the industry - I use the word in the general sense F. Toole uses it, that even includes WBF.

Please read the following words of Clement Perry about a great system using Magico Ultimate speakers http://stereotimes.com/post/a-day-in-the-life-with-dr.-jim-and-abigail-langham,-behold-electronics-and-the-magical-magico-ultima-loudspeakers

"Using a Wadia and Goldmund CD as dedicated transports, the life-like sense of scale Langham's system is capable of proved absolutely astonishing. Dynamics? I never heard anything this dead quiet and then instantly LOUD. I heard voices so delicate, yet so "there" while simultaneously other instruments appeared further recessed into the soundstage yet so tangible. Hard to describe. After hearing this for more than an hour, I developed a new-found respect for the term three-dimensional. Big, bold and musical, I would qualify it as the sonic equivalent of an IMAX movie. It got to the point where I began second-guessing if certain sounds from songs I knew intimately were actually coming from the loudspeakers themselves. Yes, it got really spooky quiet.
Insomuch, even as I attempt to share the experience with you I'm just lost for words. Both Jack Bybee and I just sat there after each song looking at each other just mumbling to ourselves. There are no words that can ever fully explain what I actually felt while listening to this system."


IMHO no more words are needed.