Thank you Mike for summarizing this issue in its simplest terms.
Suffice to say I am in full agreement.
However, I suspect there are those on this forum that will find some grounds to disagree with the above.
GG
The Half Life of Expectation Bias
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Thank you Mike for summarizing this issue in its simplest terms.
Suffice to say I am in full agreement.
However, I suspect there are those on this forum that will find some grounds to disagree with the above.
GG
To no avail, I have been trying to make the same points that Mike elaborated on. We have reached the point where we are talking past each other once again. I find this latest argument to be pointless and thus a waste of everyone's time.
Hi
For once I find myself in agreement with the subjectivists (Oh! the horror , Oh the ignominy ) . I believe that a great system add to the enjoyment , it is not that one cannot enjoy the music played on anything, I have enjoyed music on my HTC One speakers' but a better system allow more to be perceived more to listen to , more to enjoy in other words more music.
As in many things it is a matter of balance, when a person comes to a point of not enjoying music unless it is reproduced on a given medium or through a High End system then Ii believe that person is missing out a lot a it but there is no doubt in my mind that the better system put us closer to the music, hence , heightened enjoyment of it, all that IMHO, YMMV, etc...
For once I find myself in agreement with the subjectivists (Oh! the horror , Oh the ignominy
) . I believe that a great system add to the enjoyment , it is not that one cannot enjoy the music played on anything, I have enjoyed music on my HTC One speakers' but a better system allow more to be perceived more to listen to , more to enjoy in other words more music.As in many things it is a matter of balance, when a person comes to a point of not enjoying music unless it is reproduced on a given medium or through a High End system then Ii believe that person is missing out a lot a it but there is no doubt in my mind that the better system put us closer to the music, hence , heightened enjoyment of it, all that IMHO, YMMV, etc...
Yes, indeed. How becoming is it that the well to do just found another way of looking down upon the less fortunate. I take it back... it is not a risk of elitism; it is in fact elistism and elitism gone rampant at that ... the well-to-do, who can afford better systems than those without the means, are explicitly in a position to enjoy the music more. More money = better system = more enjoyment. It must be nice living in such a rarefied world. I now have music enjoyment envy.
I think it's a different question about dollars = better performance than the question of better performance = more enjoyment.
the question of what is the best path to better performance has so many answers.
methinks you want to pass moral judgment.
Not to worry, Ron. If more resolution = more music (a position I firmly disagree with), then a decent headphone rig will smoke most "big boy" systems on every front except scale. Your proletariat status denies you almost nothing.
And don't get me wrong, big boys, I thoroughly enjoy listening to good recordings reproduced in great detail. I just experience it as a separate thing from enjoying the music. I get that out of pretty basic reproduction. Enjoy your varying mileage.
Tim
That's a personal opinion, which I don't happen to agree with. IMO, a decent system will smoke a decent headphone rig any day. To me, music just doesn't sound great when I have it coming to me from two small speakers attached to my ear. The overall 'gestalt' of what I hear in 'life' just isn't there when everything else is blocked out-- ala headphone listening.YMMV.
Problem is headphones in general suck bad at measurements, and I mean bad
Pair matching in many cases is very poor and so is their FR, and influence to vibration-resonance from headband or casing; in all of these usually worst than well engineered and built high end speakers.
Sure they do not have room issues, but then not all music is binuaral (another challenge in using headphones).
Cheers
Orb
You guys need to read more carefully. I said headphone rigs excell at resolution. And they do. Feel, experience...different question. Different subject. In fact, the whole thing is a distraction from the lovely conversation we were having...forget I brought it up.
Tim
Tim
Not sure how one can have more resolution when it has worst pair matching between L/R, resonance from the headband, and a FR that can swing pretty severely and resolution/FR that can be influenced how fitted to one's pinna that may change each time headphone is put on
Say compare this to Magico S1 or S3.
Interestingly headphones can vary quite lot even between models (same brand) when it comes to measurement, but many do not seem to notice this going by forums *shrug* - not a dig at you Tim but something I find interesting as it raises thoughts on how well we "accommodate" possible and certain short comings.
Cheers
Orb
Perhaps what is separating us now is what is meant by music enjoyment. I know from experience I enjoy music more in a good seat in the music hall than in in the back side galleries. Is it an elitist attitude?
symth realiser anyone?Not sure how one can have more resolution when it has worst pair matching between L/R, resonance from the headband, and a FR that can swing pretty severely and resolution/FR that can be influenced how fitted to one's pinna that may change each time headphone is put on
Say compare this to Magico S1 or S3.
Interestingly headphones can vary quite lot even between models (same brand) when it comes to measurement, but many do not seem to notice this going by forums *shrug* - not a dig at you Tim but something I find interesting as it raises thoughts on how well we "accommodate" possible and certain short comings.
Cheers
Orb
Not sure how one can have more resolution when it has worst pair matching between L/R, resonance from the headband, and a FR that can swing pretty severely and resolution/FR that can be influenced how fitted to one's pinna that may change each time headphone is put on
Say compare this to Magico S1 or S3.
Interestingly headphones can vary quite lot even between models (same brand) when it comes to measurement, but many do not seem to notice this going by forums *shrug* - not a dig at you Tim but something I find interesting as it raises thoughts on how well we "accommodate" possible and certain short comings.
Cheers
Orb
And speakers can vary audibly, suffering FR and pair matching anomolies when you turn your head an inch. You could have your head in a vice and you'd have much greater coherency problems with multiple driver speakers than with headphones. Are you talking about cheap closed headphones? I've never heard of (or heard) many of the problems you're talking about. Got sources? You're right that a lot of headphones, even very good ones, have inaccurate FR, often because they are deliberately trying to compensate for the lack of room gain listeners are accustomed to. On the other hand, you can buy a pair of IEMs for <$200 that are as flat as Magicos in an anechoic chamber. You might not like the sound of them, though. Most people find them unnatural. But yes, when single drivers are millimeters from your eardrums and have sealed your ear canals in the process of insertion -- no room noise, no room distortion, no coherency or crossover or cabinet resonance issues -- it's about as close as you can have to a line into your brain, yes. resolution of detail can be stunning. Presentation? Staging? Very different. An acquired taste to say the least. But I can't say I've run into many people who don't believe they hear more detail on headphones. YMMV.
Tim
An acquired taste? Are you saying that properly reproducing something that is encoded in the recording is an acquired taste?
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