The Long Memory of Audiophiles

[microstrip]

Do you know that by direct comparison?

Simple physics shows it. However some people prefer to ignore the basics of sound reproduction ...

 

[PeterA]

Interesting take, Ron.

Lee, could you expand on this?

 

[PeterA]

Yes, I only know about was written in public forums. If I quoted Romy statements about Lamm and Vlaidmir Lamm from his website in this forum I would be banned ...

Why do you think you would be banned? For doing what exactly? How would you be violating the TOS? No, I think you should quote Romy to support your argument. I talked to him about the Lamm ML2 specifically when I met him. What he told me privately is quite different from what he wrote on his site.

Ok, a very small number. It was my only point.

A small number of people, all with experience, did the comparison in Utah, and their opinion is very consistent. That is significant data. And "a very small number" is not so different from many of the other discussed product opinions on a website like this in a small hobby like ours.

Who tells you that those who follow other paths listen less or read more? Perhaps they also read better.

I have no idea what this means or how it relates to what I wrote. I was not commenting about others, just about me and my experience. I simply wrote that I wish I had not read so much of the mainstream audio press which I know now led me astray. I should read less and spent more of my time and effort listening to alternatives and getting more exposure. As I said, not a big deal, it was all a part of the learning process.

 

[Kingrex]

Im not going into why they left , i assume those were " communication " issues
Im just saying they had a lot of knowledge / expirience / great systems which contributed to the forum

Yes they did. Definitely of opinion on what is musical that clashes with much of the print opinion today.

 

[thedudeabides]

I will be happy to be more specific if you require.

No need. I was not comparing CJ to AR. Whatever.

 

[Lee]

Yes they did. Definitely of opinion on what is musical that clashes with much of the print opinion today.

I don’t get this. Do you have specific examples to point to?

 

[PeterA]

I don’t get this. Do you have specific examples to point to?

Lee, KingRex was responding to Andromeda who referred to a few of the members who left the forum during a short period of time. They included people with a lot of knowledge and experience and some who actually build some their own stuff. Their approach to the hobby, their values regarding sound reproduction and the systems that they assemble and the way they set them up is contrary to much of what is written and celebrated in the main stream audio press today.

I cannot be sure, but I suspect they are referring to Audiofile Bill, Tang, and David Karmeli. The latter two have systems based around horn loud speakers, tube electronics, vinyl records, a lack of accessories, basic cables, and a mix of old and new equipment.

I apologize for jumping in and answering your question directed to KingRex.

 

[Kingrex]

Thank you Peter. Exactly.

 

[Lee]

Lee, KingRex was responding to Andromeda who referred to a few of the members who left the forum during a short period of time. They included people with a lot of knowledge and experience and some who actually build some their own stuff. Their approach to the hobby, their values regarding sound reproduction and the systems that they assemble and the way they set them up is contrary to much of what is written and celebrated in the main stream audio press today.

I cannot be sure, but I suspect they are referring to Audiofile Bill, Tang, and David Karmeli. The latter two have systems based around horn loud speakers, tube electronics, vinyl records, a lack of accessories, basic cables, and a mix of old and new equipment.

I apologize for jumping in and answering your question directed to KingRex.

Thanks Peter. I remember Karmeli well. I would still love to visit him in Utah at some point.

 

[stehno]

One thing I have been noticing more and more among audiophiles is a long memory of gear quality and performance. This manifests itself in two forms:

1. Audiophiles judge a new product by past products a company has had.

2. Audiophiles tend to have a fondness for a much older product that served as some sort of touchstone to their formative years starting the audio journey.

I am beginning to feel that this is becoming a problem of sorts, albeit an understandable one because of human nature. I will try to address each one…

1. In some ways, judging a company by past products is a good thing. What is the company’s reputation for sound? For innovation? For reliability and service? But there is one big downside and that is an inability to move past weaknesses of older designs. One example is the brightness of older Wilson models that used the inverted dome tweeter. I still get reactions from people when I mention my Alexia Vs….”oh Lee, Wilsons are so bright to my ears and very analytical sounding.” Really? Have you been to a stereo store in twenty years? Another example is tube amps. “I don’t like the missing bass on tube amps.” Really? Have you heard modern tube amps? Audio Research Reference? CAT? Conversely, “I think tubes have better midrange than solid state. Solid state has poor midrange.” Really? Have you heard the Class Pass Labs amps lately? It’s hard to put old prejudices aside but I think we must. Gear has become much better recently and certainly over time. The Rossini Apex is WAY better than the original Rossini. The new Magicos are way better than before. High end audio is producing super high quality, very advanced, aerospace-grade tech and it’s making for eargasms.

2. As Yogi Berra once said,

“Nostalgia ain’t what it used to be.”

I go to DIY and older equipment events and, with some exception, the sound is just not good at all. There are certainly examples of things like horn-based approaches sounded good. Avantgarde comes to mind….but reconditioned Bozaks are just not that great friends.

My humble suggestion is that we approach new products with an open mind, regardless of past faults that stood out. Given that materials, parts quality, and engineering approaches are ever getting better, it is time for fresh thinking. That will ensure new products get their rightfully earned time in the spotlight. And it will mean better sound quality for the entire community.

Excellent topic. Actually, I think the problem is far worse than some may realize.

From my observations, I suspect for the most part and for the vast majority, our short term audio memories are for sh!t - whether it be a recent playback presentation or a live performance. And if there's even a hint of truth to that, then the implication is our long term audio memories (playback or live) equate to little more than drug-induced fantasies.

In fact, I've no doubt that aside from the experience of the live performance itself, it's 100% worthless for audio enthusiasts to endeavor to listen to every possible note from every possible instrument in every possible renowned concert hall around the world thinking this will somehow benefit their playback endeavors. Such quests may puff up one's music appreciation resume and ego but translates to zero value when it comes to what they hear today in the listening room or the quest of assembling a playback config that is genuinely musical. Just another preconceived narrative IMO.

 

[Lee]

Excellent topic. Actually, I think the problem is far worse than some may realize.

From my observations, I suspect for the most part and for the vast majority, our short term audio memories are for sh!t - whether it be a recent playback presentation or a live performance. And if there's even a hint of truth to that, then the implication is our long term audio memories (playback or live) equate to little more than drug-induced fantasies.

In fact, I've no doubt that aside from the experience of the live performance itself, it's 100% worthless for audio enthusiasts to endeavor to listen to every possible note from every possible instrument in every possible renowned concert hall around the world thinking this will somehow benefit their playback endeavors. Such quests may puff up one's music appreciation resume and ego but translates to zero value when it comes to what they hear today in the listening room or the quest of assembling a playback config that is genuinely musical. Just another preconceived narrative IMO.

I think there is much value in live performances…learning to recognize proper timbre of the instruments, the layering of an orchestra, the sound of real dynamic swings, a sense of swing in jazz…so many other examples that can inform how well our own stereos measure up and possibly highlight areas for improvement.

 

[stehno]

I think there is much value in live performances…learning to recognize proper timbre of the instruments, the layering of an orchestra, the sound of real dynamic swings, a sense of swing in jazz…so many other examples that can inform how well our own stereos measure up and possibly highlight areas for improvement.

Indeed, Lee. All great stuff to help in one's quest to appreciate music more. But how does any of this actually translate to improving the level of musicality in one's playback system?

Surely you're not implying I or anybody else should be able to sufficiently discern your playback system's level of musicality based on the number of live performances you've attended, are you?

Just how does any enhanced level of music appreciation actually improve our playback system's performance?

 

[Another Johnson]

My humble suggestion is that we approach new products with an open mind, regardless of past faults that stood out. Given that materials, parts quality, and engineering approaches are ever getting better, it is time for fresh thinking. That will ensure new products get their rightfully earned time in the spotlight. And it will mean better sound quality for the entire community.

I couldn’t agree more with your observations.

But let’s face it. People are invested in their own systems. They derive great pleasure from what they hear. They are proud of the cleverness with which they have chosen their components. And every audiophile believes that their own system has got to be close to the limits that can be achieved. To think otherwise would put them on an incredibly expensive upgrade journey. In the current age, every true high end source, speaker, or preamp/amp upgrade is measured in at least five figures, and often six.

The easy reaction is to argue that changes perceived by others to be upgrades are nothing more than equipment lust. The old gear is here, it sounds great, what’s all the fuss about?

This is especially prevalent in the CJ community. On the CJO forum, most of the inquiries are related to the PV, MV, and Premier series. People want to know what to choose or how to fix gear that has failed. They fret that the new gear just won’t sound as good, but I am always suspicious that the $80k or more price tag for amp and preamp, and the lack of good dealer demos really suppresses the desire to look into the new stuff. The DIY guys dismiss the rest as impressionable idiots who have too much money and not enough skill.

I don’t think the community will ever homogenously embrace or find consensus on new gear. It is less expensive to be satisfied, or to play in the four figure playground of older gear, and it is free to rail against what many perceive to be the folly of modern offerings.

 

[Another Johnson]

FWIW, I personally hear linear improvements from generation to generation in the marques like CJ, ARC, Wilson, Lyra, Transparent, AudioQuest, dCS, Linn, and similar. If Jeff Fischel, Warren Gehl, Daryl Wilson, Nick Bridges, Gilad Tiefenbrun , or John Giolas thinks it’s better, my experience is that they are often right. I judge with my own ears, but I can’t remember ever being disappointed after a legitimate trial in my own system.

 

[Another Johnson]

The only components I’ve sent back after a trial have been from Prima Luna Cambridge Audio, and from McIntosh. That’s not to say they weren’t good in their own way. They just weren’t better than what I was using in the application.

Prima Luna advertises the beauty of their point to point wiring. Point to point is wonderful when it comes time for repairs, but the phantom impedance created by non identical wire paths is real and adds variability in the sound from sample to sample. The sound of a well designed multilayer board is more consistent.

I do have some McIntosh gear that I like. I would not dismiss all offerings from a marque based on having decided against one of their offerings.

 

[Lee]

When I read the examples you get from people a very obvious one popped on my mind “how can you listen vinyl, it’s noisy and lacks bass?”

It’s hard to fight against prejudice and preconceptions.


I don’t know if hi-end audio is very advanced to aerospace-grade or not but it’s sure the prices are at aerospace-grade. It’s like buying an airplane.

I have one example near and dear to my heart…the Continuum Caliburn was designed by a team mostly of aeronautical engineers and materials scientists.

 

[Rensselaer]

I have one example near and dear to my heart…the Continuum Caliburn was designed by a team mostly of aeronautical engineers and materials scientists.

You have (own) an example? Was it worth the money?

 

[Another Johnson]

I have one example near and dear to my heart…the Continuum Caliburn was designed by a team mostly of aeronautical engineers and materials scientists.

It is definitely a statement piece and could become the focal point of a system.

But it should be remembered that the engineers and material scientists doing the development were doing a “one off” at the inception. And then there’s also the Australian aspect … need a vacuum to keep the disks on the platter due to being “down unda.”

Linn have had a huge (by industry standards) legitimate engineering staff for 40+ years, yet many people prefer TTs designed by a car mechanic and built in a garage somewhere in Joisey.

There’s no accounting for taste.

If I were 25 years younger, I would love to experiment with humongous TTs. But my days of wrestling those extremely heavy components around have passed.

I’d love to hear the Caliburn though. Certainly it is among the elite.

 

[Lee]

You have (own) an example? Was it worth the money?

Yes on both.