The Long Memory of Audiophiles

[andromedaaudio]

I would also give credit to Dagostino for their new MXV circuit. My favorite room at Axpona was their Momentum version paired with Wilson’s Alexx V. This was just wonderful lifelike sound. There was definitely some synergy going on with these two.

After having heard various set ups with Wilson / d agostino at Munich last year , i think i can then conclude that we live on a different planet regarding what we value in music reproduction and what it should sound like .
I m not listening for artefacts in reproduction , it should sound as less artificial as possible.

I see absolutely no " sound " reason to read your magazines

 

[Al M.]

After having heard various set ups with Wilson / d agostino at Munich last year , i think i can then conclude that we live on a different planet regarding what we value in music reproduction and what it should sound like .
I m not listening for artefacts ,it should sound as less artificial as possible

And you still keep on making the silly mistake of drawing too firm conclusions from sound at shows, which mostly (not in all cases) is way below the level that it could be in a well set up, and over a long period of time fine-tuned, system at home.

If something sounds good at shows, I pay attention. If something doesn't, I don't even bother thinking about it much. Too many potential factors at play. Not an experience worth categorizing in one's head.

 

[andromedaaudio]

And you still keep on making the silly mistake of drawing too firm conclusions from sound at shows,

Al , i have heard countless other set ups with top DCS over this 20 year span .
I m just tired of it all .
Let me be dumb and silly in your eyes ,absolutely fine with me

 

[John T]

What is uncalled for?

Totally misinterpreted on my part, apologies...John...Post was removed...

 

[Lee]

After having heard various set ups with Wilson / d agostino at Munich last year , i think i can then conclude that we live on a different planet regarding what we value in music reproduction and what it should sound like .
I m not listening for artefacts in reproduction , it should sound as less artificial as possible.

I see absolutely no " sound " reason to read your magazines

Andromeda, we can disagree but you don’t have to be rude. TAS and hifi+ subscriptions have tripled the past few years so they are doing great but they are really Tom Martin’s magazines in any event.

Both Wilson and Dagostino have had major upgrades even since Munich last year. The MXV circuit was not out then as far as I know.

The Quintessence room at Axpona with this gear was not producing any artifacts. In fact, it was letting the music come through with ease and dynamics and resolution.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Andromeda, we can disagree but you don’t have to be rude. TAS and hifi+ subscriptions have tripled the past few years so they are doing great but they are really Tom Martin’s magazines in any event.

If i wouldn t had lost so much money in the past ( 2003 - 2010 time span ) based on magazine buying in general , i might indeed feel the urge to be more diplomatic .
May be that s where a forum like WBF fills a niche .
There are/ were members here , some which have left unfortunately who took/take a different path to musical system satisfaction.
They didnt take the spoonfed media " whats best " for granted

 

[Al M.]

Al , i have heard countless other set ups with top DCS over this 20 year span .
I m just tired of it all .
Let me be dumb and silly in your eyes ,absolutely fine with me

No, I don't think you are dumb and silly, just that this leaning on negative show experiences from you and many others is a silly mistake. We all make mistakes, that includes me as well, but I really have had enough of this one.

So many things can go wrong at a show, component mismatch, room acoustics, issues with cleanness and sufficiency of current in power delivery in those show spaces (all those power hungry systems compete for the same electrical supply), small but decisive details of setup which can go wrong under the necessarily rushed conditions to put a show system together etc. That some systems actually manage to sound good under such circumstances can range from major achievement to just lucky coincidence.

 

[mtemur]

I have a very long memory in audio and it doesn t change much , i heard these speakers for the first time in 2003 and they left a very good impression .
After hearing a qazzilion of other transducer over the years they are still the one i would buy today , audio is indeed static for me
The speakers Looks great , have a classic look .
Amps are like ice creams , pick your flavour .
Audio hasnt changed for me ove the years , most of the so called " advancements " are marketing hype made up by manufacturers / reviewers .
Wadax has done a digital advancement , but for the rest ....



View attachment 108263

I agree. Kharma classic is a great speaker.

 

[andromedaaudio]

So many things can go wrong at a show,

You make it sound its all useless going to a show , you re giving everybody a pass
I d rather buy a product based on what i heard at a show then what a reviewer thinks of it


Luckily dealers / distributors/ demonstrators have a few escape clausules ....

Interconnects / speaker cables didnt match .
Powercords were..... too short
Speakers weren t optimally placed .
Room was a mismatch .
Excessive room treatment was used .
Seating position was not optimal .
Music format favours a certain digital combination and vice versa .
Weather conditions were not optimal
Impedance characterics of the speakers didnt match
Source material was not of high quality .
Music that was played favoured the other combination.
Amps were not powerfull enough to show what the set up is really capable off .
Room dimensions were just plain wrong .
This digital set up can only show its true potential in combination with transparent transducers like horns so the whole comparison is not valid .
The equipment can only live up to its true potential if mated with tubes

 

[Al M.]

You make it sound its all useless going to a show , you re giving everybody a pass
I d rather buy a product based on what i heard at a show then what a reviewer thinks of it


Luckily dealers / distributors/ demonstrators have a few escape clausules ....

Interconnects / speaker cables didnt match .
Powercords were..... too short
Speakers weren t optimally placed .
Room was a mismatch .
Excessive room treatment was used .
Seating position was not optimal .
Music format favours a certain digital combination and vice versa .
Weather conditions were not optimal
Impedance characterics of the speakers didnt match
Source material was not of high quality .
Music that was played favoured the other combination.
Amps were not powerfull enough to show what the set up is really capable off .
Room dimensions were just plain wrong .
This digital set up can only show its true potential in combination with transparent transducers like horns so the whole comparison is not valid .
The equipment can only live up to its true potential if mated with tubes

Of course the weather conditions are never optimal

 

[Al M.]

[...] Definitely one of the best sounds in an overall very poor sounding show (at least compared to the sound that I get at home and that my friends get).

From the AXPONA 2023 thread, and exactly to my point. Shows sound in general poor compared to carefully set up, over long periods fine-tuned, home systems.

To draw big conclusions from shows is a stretch.

 

[dcathro]

One thing I have been noticing more and more among audiophiles is a long memory of gear quality and performance. This manifests itself in two forms:

1. Audiophiles judge a new product by past products a company has had.

2. Audiophiles tend to have a fondness for a much older product that served as some sort of touchstone to their formative years starting the audio journey.

I am beginning to feel that this is becoming a problem of sorts, albeit an understandable one because of human nature. I will try to address each one…

1. In some ways, judging a company by past products is a good thing. What is the company’s reputation for sound? For innovation? For reliability and service? But there is one big downside and that is an inability to move past weaknesses of older designs. One example is the brightness of older Wilson models that used the inverted dome tweeter. I still get reactions from people when I mention my Alexia Vs….”oh Lee, Wilsons are so bright to my ears and very analytical sounding.” Really? Have you been to a stereo store in twenty years? Another example is tube amps. “I don’t like the missing bass on tube amps.” Really? Have you heard modern tube amps? Audio Research Reference? CAT? Conversely, “I think tubes have better midrange than solid state. Solid state has poor midrange.” Really? Have you heard the Class Pass Labs amps lately? It’s hard to put old prejudices aside but I think we must. Gear has become much better recently and certainly over time. The Rossini Apex is WAY better than the original Rossini. The new Magicos are way better than before. High end audio is producing super high quality, very advanced, aerospace-grade tech and it’s making for eargasms.

2. As Yogi Berra once said,

“Nostalgia ain’t what it used to be.”

I go to DIY and older equipment events and, with some exception, the sound is just not good at all. There are certainly examples of things like horn-based approaches sounded good. Avantgarde comes to mind….but reconditioned Bozaks are just not that great friends.

My humble suggestion is that we approach new products with an open mind, regardless of past faults that stood out. Given that materials, parts quality, and engineering approaches are ever getting better, it is time for fresh thinking. That will ensure new products get their rightfully earned time in the spotlight. And it will mean better sound quality for the entire community.

Hi Lee,

I appreciate your point of view given your experience. However, I think that things are far more complicated than the simple idea that technological advancements mean that audio products manufactured today are superior to those made in the past.

Often superior technologies are dropped because of cost or other difficulties, for example field coils or AlNiCo magnets. Wilson Audio has just recently rediscovered AlNiCo for a midrange driver.

I know most people are into streaming or vinyl, but as a CD user, (in my opinion) the best laser transports were the swing arms made by Philips in 1980s.

My preamp is a class A single stage , single transistor unit that is just about all power supply. It has a unique sound significantly due to all the Super-E non polar Black Gate capacitors that are sadly no longer made.

Some of my friends into valve gear tell me that the best tubes were made a hundred years ago. Try as hard as we like, we can't replicate the same quality today.

It is not just technology that makes a difference, it is also art - and art is often lost!

I agree with you that it is best to keep an open mind.

With Respect

David

 

[tima]

Totally misinterpreted on my part, apologies...John...Post was removed...

No problem. I thought there might be a misunderstanding. Glad it sorted itself out..

 

[Lee]

Hi Lee,

I appreciate your point of view given your experience. However, I think that things are far more complicated than the simple idea that technological advancements mean that audio products manufactured today are superior to those made in the past.

Often superior technologies are dropped because of cost or other difficulties, for example field coils or AlNiCo magnets. Wilson Audio has just recently rediscovered AlNiCo for a midrange driver.

I know most people are into streaming or vinyl, but as a CD user, (in my opinion) the best laser transports were the swing arms made by Philips in 1980s.

My preamp is a class A single stage , single transistor unit that is just about all power supply. It has a unique sound significantly due to all the Super-E non polar Black Gate capacitors that are sadly no longer made.

Some of my friends into valve gear tell me that the best tubes were made a hundred years ago. Try as hard as we like, we can't replicate the same quality today.

It is not just technology that makes a difference, it is also art - and art is often lost!

I agree with you that it is best to keep an open mind.

With Respect

David

Yet one could answer these with new tech products point by point.

CD transport? The new Esoteric is really advanced. How about the new ground-up design from CH Precision?

Black Gate caps? How about the new Super Caps from Wilson advancing prior RELCap designs?

Best tubes? I toured the Western Electric factory in Rossville. Their tubes are certainly better.

 

[Al M.]

Hi Lee,

I appreciate your point of view given your experience. However, I think that things are far more complicated than the simple idea that technological advancements mean that audio products manufactured today are superior to those made in the past.

Often superior technologies are dropped because of cost or other difficulties, for example field coils or AlNiCo magnets. Wilson Audio has just recently rediscovered AlNiCo for a midrange driver.

Very interesting point, David, but overall, count me not quite convinced by your post.

I know most people are into streaming or vinyl, but as a CD user, (in my opinion) the best laser transports were the swing arms made by Philips in 1980s.

I prefer CD transports over streaming too, but my Simaudio Moon transport, a decade-old design, is excellent. I also couple it with a reclocker to enhance performance even more, by further reducing the already relatively low jitter from my transport. Separate reclockers (at least on the non-pro audio level) are a relatively recent but very welcome development. A Philips CD transport from the 1980s, which has significant jitter, would benefit from a reclocker as well.

My preamp is a class A single stage , single transistor unit that is just about all power supply. It has a unique sound significantly due to all the Super-E non polar Black Gate capacitors that are sadly no longer made.

Some of my friends into valve gear tell me that the best tubes were made a hundred years ago. Try as hard as we like, we can't replicate the same quality today.

Of all the tube amps that I have heard, incuding some SETs, I like mine the best. It's an Octave RE 320 amp, a pentode ("ouch") class AB (non-purist, "yikes") design which uses KT120 tubes, a relatively recent tube type. Andreas Hoffman, the designer, really knows how to make AB pentode circuitry sing, with apparently innovative features. The Octave also sounds better -- more natural -- than my old Audio Innovations class A parallel push-pull 2A3 triode monoblocks, which in turn had already been significantly improved by external BorderPatrol power supplies, a design from the 2000s I believe. I do look forward to hearing another SET amp in two months. -- My Octave HP 700 preamp is an excellent partner for the power amp.

Of course every assessment about what you like best is dependent on system context. Three years ago my Octave amplification did not remotely give me the sonic result that I hear now, since overall my system was not yet at the level that it is now. It's also better than two months ago. Due to another slight tweak it is also better than just 14 days ago.

It is not just technology that makes a difference, it is also art - and art is often lost!

That I can agree with.

Al

 

[dcathro]

Yet one could answer these with new tech products point by point.

CD transport? The new Esoteric is really advanced. How about the new ground-up design from CH Precision?

Black Gate caps? How about the new Super Caps from Wilson advancing prior RELCap designs?

Best tubes? I toured the Western Electric factory in Rossville. Their tubes are certainly better.

Sorry Lee, but I think you swallowed the blue pill

 

[Gregm]

Greg, one good example of modern engineering approaches is the Klippel device I saw in action at Magico. It’s only been around recently.

Good point

 

[andromedaaudio]

If something sounds good at shows, I pay attention. If something doesn't, I don't even bother thinking about it much. Too many potential factors at play. Not an experience worth categorizing in one's head.

Your logic doesnt hold up either (but i ll forgive you since you have good stuff like the Octave combo )
I heard two Kharma midi Grand exquisite set ups in Munchen .
One with their own amplification which was nothing special .
The other with RKoda which was very good .
Very good products can be mistaken for being mediocre / not good at shows .
Saying i dont need to pay any attention anymore to a product because it sounded not good at a show is also shortsighted .
The reason i started to really comment on the XVXs/ Nagra performance was because somebody stated 3 magazines voted it best of the show .
This was so far off in my opinion i just couldn t stay silent any more .
Revolt of the peasants

I heard the FM acoustics set up in Munchen and it was one of best reproduced sounds bar none i ve ever heard.
FM eats Magico/ soulution and wilson/ d agostino for breakfast


Peasants revolt ( monty phyton)

 

[Al M.]

Your logic doesnt hold up either (but i ll forgive you since you have good stuff like the Octave combo )

Hehe, thanks.

I heard two Kharma midi Grand exquisite set ups in Munchen .
One with their own amplification which was nothing special .
The other with RKoda which was very good .

As I said, when something sounds *good* at a show, this means something.

The reason i started to really comment on the XVXs/ Nagra performance was because somebody stated 3 magazines voted it best of the show .
This was so far off in my opinion i just couldn t stay silent any more .

Aah, yes, projection by the reviewer "experts". I experienced a similar thing: the Van Schweikert room at AXPONA 2017 with their big speakers sounded mediocre *at best*, but one reviewer in Stereophile or TAS made it seem as if it was the second coming. Outrageously ridiculous. I was appalled.

Revolt of the peasants

Good for you!

Revolting against ridiculous show reports and cookie cutter opinions is always appropriate.

 

[jep123]

Your logic doesnt hold up either (but i ll forgive you since you have good stuff like the Octave combo )
I heard two Kharma midi Grand exquisite set ups in Munchen .
One with their own amplification which was nothing special .
The other with RKoda which was very good .
Very good products can be mistaken for being mediocre / not good at shows .
Saying i dont need to pay any attention anymore to a product because it sounded not good at a show is also shortsighted .
The reason i started to really comment on the XVXs/ Nagra performance was because somebody stated 3 magazines voted it best of the show .
This was so far off in my opinion i just couldn t stay silent any more .
Revolt of the peasants

I heard the FM acoustics set up in Munchen and it was one of best reproduced sounds bar none i ve ever heard.
FM eats Magico/ soulution and wilson/ d agostino for breakfast


Peasants revolt


View attachment 108287

I have heard FM acoustics several times in Munich. To be honest I have not been very impressed by those systems. Extremely expensive stuff. This proves that tastes in sound can not be discussed, you loved FM, me not so much. Nothing wrong in that!