The new Aida reviewd by Michael Fremer

microstrip

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Interesting, and you heard the Extrema's and the GH's through Krells...that says it all!!:eek:

( BTW, what subs were you using with the GH's???)

Who said so ? "It" was the recording.

Amps on GH's were almost always tubes - cj, ARC, jadis - although they liked the DartZeel's. And we used a pair of the old REL using the speaker preferred mode - Stentors or similar, do not remember and now JL Audio.

FIY, most of the time the Extrema's were used with ARC Classic 150 monsters. They also loved the conrad johnson Premier 8A.

Some people have the wrong idea of Krell electronics because they never listened to them in a properly tuned system. In the hands of knowledgeable people they could sound great with any Sonus Faber speaker.
 

DaveyF

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For me, the GHs are a sublime speaker. I have heard the generation of older SFs and found (like the subsequent mid-level line below the original SF Homage line) that Krell power made them come alive in a way i could not get tubes or other amps to do. I could imagine the Extrema sounding great with the Krells as I think they thrived on a ton of high quality current/power.

The GH on the other hand sounded great with midpowered tubes and also the big Gryphon amp...but i absolutely could not make them work to my liking with Krell.


Right Lloyd, with Krells the sound was always lacking..simply due, IME, to the fact that the GH’s are so revealing that a ‘dry’ sounding ss amp would be laid bare for all to hear, assuming of course one had the ability to hear that in the first place.
 

microstrip

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Right Lloyd, with Krells the sound was always lacking..simply due, IME, to the fact that the GH’s are so revealing that a ‘dry’ sounding ss amp would be laid bare for all to hear, assuming of course one had the ability to hear that in the first place.

True class A Krell's dry sounding? Only if the specimen you listened had dry electrolytic capacitors, as most unfortunately had after a few years of service at high temperature. :) But yes, if someone is used to a pussycat he will be terrified by the tiger ...

Mini monitors in small rooms are always more revealing than full range speakers - F. Toole explains it clearly in his great book.

The trick to have a marvelous liquid sound with the classic class A Krell's was using a great tube preamplifier - ARC SP8, SP10, cj ART, premier 16 or premier 14, even the CAT ...
 

bonzo75

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True class A Krell's dry sounding? Only if the specimen you listened had dry electrolytic capacitors, as most unfortunately had after a few years of service at high temperature. :) But yes, if someone is used to a pussycat he will be terrified by the tiger ...

Mini monitors in small rooms are always more revealing than full range speakers - F. Toole explains it clearly in his great book.

The trick to have a marvelous liquid sound with the classic class A Krell's was using a great tube preamplifier - ARC SP8, SP10, cj ART, premier 16 or premier 14, even the CAT ...

+1. The AR and FPBs were never dry sounding
 

DaveyF

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True class A Krell's dry sounding? Only if the specimen you listened had dry electrolytic capacitors, as most unfortunately had after a few years of service at high temperature. :) But yes, if someone is used to a pussycat he will be terrified by the tiger ...

Mini monitors in small rooms are always more revealing than full range speakers - F. Toole explains it clearly in his great book.

The trick to have a marvelous liquid sound with the classic class A Krell's was using a great tube preamplifier - ARC SP8, SP10, cj ART, premier 16 or premier 14, even the CAT ...


Perhaps a better way of describing the sound would be “sterile”. There was nothing functionally wrong with the Krell amps that I heard...in fact they were fairly new at the time. The tiger in your example has no claws, because the amp you used de-clawed it! Ok, your turn again, lol.:eek:
 

microstrip

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Perhaps a better way of describing the sound would be “sterile”. There was nothing functionally wrong with the Krell amps that I heard...in fact they were fairly new at the time. The tiger in your example has no claws, because the amp you used de-clawed it! Ok, your turn again, lol.:eek:

Nothing new to add, I am addressing aspects of the sound of components I have large personal experience with, nothing else ... :(
 

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microstrip

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Nothing else...because nobody else has as much experience with these components as you do..right?:rolleyes:

No, I have been fortunate to meet people who are really Sonus Faber knowledgeable aficionados and know a lot more than any of us on the CH and Extrema speakers. For several reasons I picked the SF Amator v1 as the Sonus Faber vintage to own and we have spent good moments debating it.

And yes, I know that discussions on GH are similar to ELS57 versus ESL63 - they never end ... :)

BTW, tomorrow I hope to spend some time listening to the Aida II's again!
 

LL21

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Right Lloyd, with Krells the sound was always lacking..simply due, IME, to the fact that the GH’s are so revealing that a ‘dry’ sounding ss amp would be laid bare for all to hear, assuming of course one had the ability to hear that in the first place.

I am not so sure...i think that when Franco designed the 2 speakers, they were meant to be driven differently. My recollection was that he drove the GHs with midranged powered tubes from designers like Berning. But the Extremas were able to suck up volumes of current and I feel having listened to that generation of speakers from SF that while they sounded excellent with midpowered tubes...there was something in their alacrity, and even their nuance that 'came alive' when driven by enormous class A current.

I preferred the GHs with the Antileon over the mid-powered CJ MV60, but that preference was far more about the bass control than the overall presentation where the GH was sublime with both amps.
 

LL21

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Right Lloyd, with Krells the sound was always lacking..simply due, IME, to the fact that the GH’s are so revealing that a ‘dry’ sounding ss amp would be laid bare for all to hear, assuming of course one had the ability to hear that in the first place.

I am not so sure...i think that when Franco designed the 2 speakers, they were meant to be driven differently. My recollection was that he drove the GHs with midranged powered tubes from designers like Berning. But the Extremas were able to suck up volumes of current and I feel having listened to that generation of speakers from SF that while they sounded excellent with midpowered tubes...there was something in their alacrity, and even their nuance that 'came alive' when driven by enormous class A current.

I preferred the GHs with the Antileon over the mid-powered CJ MV60, but that preference was far more about the bass control than the overall presentation where the GH was sublime with both amps.

Here is a quote from Franco Serblin about his Accordo regarding his design intent, as well as some interesting observations of his regarding different amp topologies driving his Accordo design:

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/francoserblin2/4.html

"Let me clarify some issues related to amplification for the Accordo. These speakers have been designed to be as transparent and dynamic as possible. In order to successfully achieve this objective I have used a unique woofer with a long-stroke diaphragm and low resistance bass-reflex loading designed to offer the best impulse response. Although the Accordo can be driven by any amplifier, we recommend amplifiers with low output impedance and medium output power (40-70wpc into 8Ω and 80-150wpc into 4Ω). Too much power may result in excessive cone excursion and deterioration of signal quality. If we use the Accordo with a tube or Mosfet amplifier with high output impedance we may end up with not fully optimal bass control and again encounter uncontrolled cone travel. Needless to say that tube amps are generally not too good in this regard. I personally use the Einstein integrated amplifier which is nice sounding but without bass as good as transistor amps." - Sincerely, Franco Serblin
 

DaveyF

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Here is a quote from Franco Serblin about his Accordo regarding his design intent, as well as some interesting observations of his regarding different amp topologies driving his Accordo design:

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/francoserblin2/4.html

"Let me clarify some issues related to amplification for the Accordo. These speakers have been designed to be as transparent and dynamic as possible. In order to successfully achieve this objective I have used a unique woofer with a long-stroke diaphragm and low resistance bass-reflex loading designed to offer the best impulse response. Although the Accordo can be driven by any amplifier, we recommend amplifiers with low output impedance and medium output power (40-70wpc into 8Ω and 80-150wpc into 4Ω). Too much power may result in excessive cone excursion and deterioration of signal quality. If we use the Accordo with a tube or Mosfet amplifier with high output impedance we may end up with not fully optimal bass control and again encounter uncontrolled cone travel. Needless to say that tube amps are generally not too good in this regard. I personally use the Einstein integrated amplifier which is nice sounding but without bass as good as transistor amps." - Sincerely, Franco Serblin

That’s interesting. I think it unfortunate that Franco didn’t live to hear the latest subwoofers, like the new REL’s. Plus, I think the latest generation of tube amps that utilize the new KT120 and better still, the new KT150 tubes, don’t have the bass control problems he alludes to.
Your recollection of how the two speakers were meant to be driven is correct. The GH’s work great with Medium low to medium powered tube amps, the Extremas need a lot more power... so a hefty ss amp usually works best. Matching up a Krell with the GH’s brings about the results that Micro states.:rolleyes:
 

LL21

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...

Curiously the Thesonusfaber (Fenice) has the essential drive of the Extrema, much more than the original Aida's. If my room was wider I would have got a pair that a friend sold sometime ago. But the TSF need a really large room (and lot of power BTW).

How do you compare the SF with your current XLFs? They were both $200K+ flagships when they were launched...so wondering if you could provide any guidance on how they compare with each other? Thanks!!
 

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How do you compare the SF with your current XLFs? They were both $200K+ flagships when they were launched...so wondering if you could provide any guidance on how they compare with each other? Thanks!!

The XLF is a more complete speaker than the Aida's - more dynamic, surely with better transient capabilities, and a larger scale. They can't be compared directly, as the Aida's need a lot more power and amplifiers that drive the XLF with ease will not move the Aida's. I found that the XLF's can be played at lower levels than Aida's without loss of detail or stage.

The Thesonusfaber is a much more colored speaker, needs to be played loud. Very different from Aida's or any other SF. Impressive dynamics for rock and full scale music, clear and detailed. Needs a very large room with impressive power needs. Neighborhood will hate them, your visitors will love them! Hard to tune, excessively dependent on recording technique.

Both Sonus Faber's are an a hard load on the amplifiers, the impedance goes very low in critical zones of the audio band.

BTW, I have little experience with the new Aida - the Aida II, but I was impressed by what I have listened. If I had not got the XLF , the Aida II's would surely make a visit to my room.
 

LL21

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The XLF is a more complete speaker than the Aida's - more dynamic, surely with better transient capabilities, and a larger scale. They can't be compared directly, as the Aida's need a lot more power and amplifiers that drive the XLF with ease will not move the Aida's. I found that the XLF's can be played at lower levels than Aida's without loss of detail or stage.

The Thesonusfaber is a much more colored speaker, needs to be played loud. Very different from Aida's or any other SF. Impressive dynamics for rock and full scale music, clear and detailed. Needs a very large room with impressive power needs. Neighborhood will hate them, your visitors will love them! Hard to tune, excessively dependent on recording technique.

Both Sonus Faber's are an a hard load on the amplifiers, the impedance goes very low in critical zones of the audio band.

BTW, I have little experience with the new Aida - the Aida II, but I was impressed by what I have listened. If I had not got the XLF , the Aida II's would surely make a visit to my room.
Thanks! Very helpful as always. A true encyclopedia of experience and information!
 

Khalondir

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The XLF is a more complete speaker than the Aida's - more dynamic, surely with better transient capabilities, and a larger scale. They can't be compared directly, as the Aida's need a lot more power and amplifiers that drive the XLF with ease will not move the Aida's. I found that the XLF's can be played at lower levels than Aida's without loss of detail or stage.

The Thesonusfaber is a much more colored speaker, needs to be played loud. Very different from Aida's or any other SF. Impressive dynamics for rock and full scale music, clear and detailed. Needs a very large room with impressive power needs. Neighborhood will hate them, your visitors will love them! Hard to tune, excessively dependent on recording technique.

Both Sonus Faber's are an a hard load on the amplifiers, the impedance goes very low in critical zones of the audio band.

BTW, I have little experience with the new Aida - the Aida II, but I was impressed by what I have listened. If I had not got the XLF , the Aida II's would surely make a visit to my room.
When you heard aida II, do you remember which amplifier was used with Aida II?
I am researching which amplifier goes well with aida ii, if they need a lot of power to sound good.
 

microstrip

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When you heard aida II, do you remember which amplifier was used with Aida II?
I am researching which amplifier goes well with aida ii, if they need a lot of power to sound good.

The Aida II's were being played by the Audio Research REF160 mono-blocks when I listened to them. I was astonished, as I had found before that the REF250's were not enough for the old Aida. But is was a quick listen and we did not test the full dynamic capabilities of the system.
 

kkfan

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The XLF is a more complete speaker than the Aida's - more dynamic, surely with better transient capabilities, and a larger scale. They can't be compared directly, as the Aida's need a lot more power and amplifiers that drive the XLF with ease will not move the Aida's. I found that the XLF's can be played at lower levels than Aida's without loss of detail or stage.

The Thesonusfaber is a much more colored speaker, needs to be played loud. Very different from Aida's or any other SF. Impressive dynamics for rock and full scale music, clear and detailed. Needs a very large room with impressive power needs. Neighborhood will hate them, your visitors will love them! Hard to tune, excessively dependent on recording technique.

Both Sonus Faber's are an a hard load on the amplifiers, the impedance goes very low in critical zones of the audio band.

BTW, I have little experience with the new Aida - the Aida II, but I was impressed by what I have listened. If I had not got the XLF , the Aida II's would surely make a visit to my room.

Can you please elaborate on what you mean by when you say The Sonus Faber “is a much more colored speaker?” Also, do you know how well it performed on vocals? Do these speakers not sound good when played softly (Low volume)?

Thanks in advance
 

microstrip

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Can you please elaborate on what you mean by when you say The Sonus Faber “is a much more colored speaker?” Also, do you know how well it performed on vocals? Do these speakers not sound good when played softly (Low volume)?

Thanks in advance

My reference for tone is the Quad ESL63 - the TheSonusFaber did not have the seamless tone continuity that you get in a piano reproduction or string quartet with the ESL63. Vocals were excellent - but more on the sense of having more power than being nuanced. As I never listened to them in my room I was not able to listen to them played softly in adequate conditions - but I got the feeling they need to be be played louder than the XLF to sound lively. We have a member that owns them - Frank750 - see http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...-their-absence&p=383908&viewfull=1#post383908

They have a new model - if the improvement is simliar to what we see in the Aida II compared to the old Aida it should be a fabulous speaker.
 
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