The official audio myth busting thread

[Blizzard]

Great. I look forward to your implementation of it.

Thanks.

I already have prototypes working, but every time I get a new board, I come up with a better idea, and back to the drawing board. Then these engineers are busy guys, and if you rush them they get grumpy. So you just gotta be patient. It doesn't pay to rush anything and get it out there half assed. Everything's in slow motion if you want engineers who know what their doing.

 

[Blizzard]

Impressions are in from the Kronos turntable/black beauty tonearm and Pass XS phono stage vs the Merging NADAC/Hqplayer at Madfloyd's place.

See post #74:

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...s-my-true-love-gave-to-me&p=373821#post373821

 

[Blizzard]

Impressions are in from the Kronos turntable/black beauty tonearm and Pass XS phono stage vs the Merging NADAC/Hqplayer at Madfloyd's place.

See post #74:

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...s-my-true-love-gave-to-me&p=373821#post373821

I'm so impressed by the results here we can almost call this myth busted already.

 

[Al M.]

I'm so impressed by the results here we can almost call this myth busted already.

Before you get so excited, have you asked the owner of the system, Madfloyd, about his own opinion? I am not disputing what Alan heard, but I believe it would be courteous to ask the owner about his opinion before throwing a victory lap, don't you think?

 

[Blizzard]

Before you get so excited, have you asked the owner of the system, Madfloyd, about his own opinion? I am not disputing what Alan heard, but I believe it would be courteous to ask the owner about his opinion before throwing a victory lap, don't you think?

There may be more configurations he can try before making his firm decision on what he prefers. So maybe once he's tried these, he will share his own impressions. And of course, quad DSD vinyl rip from his vinyl rig weren't used in the comparison. So is was apples to oranges comparisons still.

 

[Don Hills]

Hey brother. I stopped going. Once you get to a certain age the membership starts declining.

a+

So do the members...

 

[Al M.]

Before you get so excited, have you asked the owner of the system, Madfloyd, about his own opinion? I am not disputing what Alan heard, but I believe it would be courteous to ask the owner about his opinion before throwing a victory lap, don't you think?

Ian's own verdict is in:

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...ove-gave-to-me&p=373988&viewfull=1#post373988

 

[Blizzard]

Ian's own verdict is in:

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...ove-gave-to-me&p=373988&viewfull=1#post373988

Yes I read. I also shared a few tips on things he can try to get the tonal balance he's looking for. I can't help but wonder if he would prefer the vinyl to the R2R master played on Bob Attiyeh's machine as well? He also has a preamp in the chain between the DAC and amps. It doesn't matter if you spend a million $ on a preamp, it's still extra circuitry in the chain, and it will degrade the signal. Although being a Pass preamp, it might add richness because Pass electronic's gear is specifically designed to add richness. Personally I never use standalone preamps together with DAC's that have preamp level output stages in them. It's like putting 2 preamps in series with each other.

 

[Al M.]

Personally I never use standalone preamps together with DAC's that have preamp level output stages in them. It's like putting 2 preamps in series with each other.

I feed my amps directly from my DAC through its digital colume control as well.

 

[Blizzard]

I feed my amps directly from my DAC through its digital colume control as well.

It's a very sensitive issue for some reason for many. Vendors in general love them, because it's another piece of gear they can sell you. Then we have guys who simply like the "voicing" of preamps. Really preamps are supposed to be transparent. But it's simply not the case, as even a short piece of speaker wire isn't 100% transparent. There's a lot of components and circuitry the signal must pass through. Then you also have an extra set of interconnects and connectors. Last time I had this argument was with a friend who bought a Resonessence Mirus DAC. He had a very expensive Sim audio preamp and said there's no way connecting the DAC direct would be better. All of his friends and all of the dealers told him he needs the preamp to get the right drive to the amp. Well I went over there and unhooked it myself and took his preamp out of the picture. He was stunned how much better it was. He was actually mad that it was better, and just didn't want to accept it. But he finally accepted it and sold the preamp.

Same thing when I audition dac's at dealers. They always have them connected to a pre. So I listen and then I say, okay sounds nice but I want to audition the DAC, not the DAC and preamp. All the preamp is doing is adding coloration. So they try to tell me a bunch of BS, but finally we connect the DAC direct and it sounds way better every time. So I say to them, "how can you possibly not think this sounds better". Especially when the pre has tubes in it. I tell them "why don't we just buy 200' of home depot extension cord and make interconnects out of it, if we want to add a bunch of coloration and grain? Much cheaper."

Changing 1 filter setting in HQplayer can subjectively alter the sound more than adding a preamp. And it does it without adding a single piece of sound degrading gear into the signal chain. That's the way to do things today if you want to "voice". And if you really want the extra analog inputs, buy a DAC/pre.

 

[DaveC]

Every source, amp(s) and cable arrangement don't match up well, and good preamps sound subjectively better to a huge majority of people... sounds like you've never heard a good preamp. This is another of those times you should keep an open mind... Part of the reason is most volume controls built into DACs do not sound as good as a high end autoformer, LDR or stepped attenuator based VCs. So it does take a good preamp, and it's not inexpensive. And, source switching, the need for multiple outputs, etc...

But the truth is active preamps used to be far more useful then they are now, when the voltage gain and drive were actually required. It's changing, but having extreme excess gain is all too common with today's 2V sources paired with active preamps and often only a VC and source switching are needed. I think it makes a lot of sense for the preamp to do most of the voltage gain and the amps should have much higher input sensitivities and much less gain, that was the original idea...

 

[bonzo75]

I feed my amps directly from my DAC through its digital colume control as well.

You will get a big jump with a good active preamp.

 

[Al M.]

You will get a big jump with a good active preamp.

Not necessarily. My amps have an extremely sensitive input, so even when previously I had a DAC with fixed output I just had to use a passive preamp (a simple volume control without amplification). Basically in a sense my amps are already preamp/amp in one.

 

[Blizzard]

Every source, amp(s) and cable arrangement don't match up well, and good preamps sound subjectively better to a huge majority of people... sounds like you've never heard a good preamp. This is another of those times you should keep an open mind... Part of the reason is most volume controls built into DACs do not sound as good as a high end autoformer, LDR or stepped attenuator based VCs. So it does take a good preamp, and it's not inexpensive. And, source switching, the need for multiple outputs, etc...

But the truth is active preamps used to be far more useful then they are now, when the voltage gain and drive were actually required. It's changing, but having extreme excess gain is all too common with today's 2V sources paired with active preamps and often only a VC and source switching are needed. I think it makes a lot of sense for the preamp to do most of the voltage gain and the amps should have much higher input sensitivities and much less gain, that was the original idea...

Proper modern high end DAC's designed to power amps direct, have enough output, and proper volume control's. If a DAC, needs a preamp to sound good, then it wouldn't be a DAC I would be buying. I've heard plenty of good preamps, and with a good DAC with a solid output stage, they only degrade performance. If what your saying applies to DAC's, it should also apply to preamps. Why not connect 2 preamps together then?

Yes I realize it makes sense with an old fashioned design. But if there's a better way to do things, why should you care about inferior ways? There's absolutely no reason to build a DAC without a solid output stage and volume control these days. And you really shouldn't need analog inputs either unless for phono, or HT bypass.

And if your DAC uses a Sabre chip, and has a low noise floor, you'll never beat it with an analog volume control. This is because you can't bypass it anyways, and it doesn't degrade the quality. It's only inferior if the DAC has a high noise floor.


While we are on the topic, this is another myth that should be busted. Since it's one of the most annoying myth's in modern audio. Even when the manufacturers insist not to use a preamp, people still do.

 

[bonzo75]

Not necessarily. My amps have an extremely sensitive input, so even when previously I had a DAC with fixed output I just had to use a passive preamp (a simple volume control without amplification). Basically in a sense my amps are already preamp/amp in one.

Have you tried good preamps, active?

 

[Blizzard]

Have you tried good preamps, active?

A better question would be have you tried a good DAC?

 

[Al M.]

Have you tried good preamps, active?

Given what I said about my amps that does not seem to be a very relevant question, does it?

The expert who has extensively modified my amps and knows them in and out suggested that the only alternative would be a buffered passive preamp (no gain), but he also said with a DAC that has a robust output stage like mine this is unnecessary.

 

[Blizzard]

Given what I said about my amps that does not seem to be a very relevant question, does it?

The expert who has extensively modified my amps and knows them in and out suggested that the only alternative would be a buffered passive preamp (no gain), but he also said with a DAC that has a robust output stage like mine this is unnecessary.

Unless of course you want to add coloration. This is what most people like about preamps.

 

[spazmatron]

Unless of course you want to add coloration. This is what most people like about preamps.

Why not a direct feed for your source into a amp that has a volume control? Best of both worlds, I know some esoteric amps do this.
Ultimately Mike is right, but I use a pre amp. Again I tried without on a few of my sources but found I preferred the pre. It seems to be vital to to providing me with the presentation I like.

I am with bonzo on this but with the event of better dac's with better volume control and better ways of manipulating the signal/ musical presentation with software my pre days will be numbered I am sure.

Can't wait, less boxes in the rack is a good thing imo.

 

[bonzo75]

Why not a direct feed for your source into a amp that has a volume control? Best of both worlds, I know some esoteric amps do this.
Ultimately Mike is right, but I use a pre amp. Again I tried without on a few of my sources but found I preferred the pre. It seems to be vital to to providing me with the presentation I like.

I am with bonzo on this but with the event of better dac's with better volume control and better ways of manipulating the signal/ musical presentation with software my pre days will be numbered I am sure.

Can't wait, less boxes in the rack is a good thing imo.

Problem from dac to power amp is impedance match. It will definitely not match all. And you want to buy a dac for how it performs on the digital to analog conversion, not on how it matches the power amp. A Spectral requires a low impedance, high voltage preamp. Why would you focus on getting a dac with high voltage and low impedance instead of a dac that does the Digital to analog properly - there are other tools to the impedance voltage match. Also occasionally you might change from SE to balanced.

Now, if you want to reduce boxes, that's a different objective. Go Devialet. or go Linn Akubarik Exakt and also reduce cables. But if you are discussing what sounds better, it is separate boxes, and matching them properly. Also, like I said, I believe 90% of the people on this forum want to swap boxes, the pace of swapping might differ, so more boxes give better flexibility.