The official audio myth busting thread

[spazmatron]

Problem from dac to power amp is impedance match. It will definitely not match all. And you want to buy a dac for how it performs on the digital to analog conversion, not on how it matches the power amp. A Spectral requires a low impedance, high voltage preamp. Why would you focus on getting a dac with high voltage and low impedance instead of a dac that does the Digital to analog properly - there are other tools to the impedance voltage match. Also occasionally you might change from SE to balanced.

Now, if you want to reduce boxes, that's a different objective. Go Devialet. or go Linn Akubarik Exakt and also reduce cables. But if you are discussing what sounds better, it is separate boxes, and matching them properly. Also, like I said, I believe 90% of the people on this forum want to swap boxes, the pace of swapping might differ, so more boxes give better flexibility.

Fair enough, am happy with my pre amp. Won't buy devialet on principle because of thier advertising copy. I find it offensive. I agree with you many love to play with thier boxes. As you know I am not one of them. My pre is low impedance high voltage, will keep spectral in mind if I every fancy trying a new amp.

Thanks bonzo.

 

[Blizzard]

Problem from dac to power amp is impedance match. It will definitely not match all. And you want to buy a dac for how it performs on the digital to analog conversion, not on how it matches the power amp. A Spectral requires a low impedance, high voltage preamp. Why would you focus on getting a dac with high voltage and low impedance instead of a dac that does the Digital to analog properly - there are other tools to the impedance voltage match. Also occasionally you might change from SE to balanced.

Now, if you want to reduce boxes, that's a different objective. Go Devialet. or go Linn Akubarik Exakt and also reduce cables. But if you are discussing what sounds better, it is separate boxes, and matching them properly. Also, like I said, I believe 90% of the people on this forum want to swap boxes, the pace of swapping might differ, so more boxes give better flexibility.

Sounds like the typical response from someone who's been dealer educated. How about buying a DAC that is capable of driving the impedance of your amp instead?

Let me guess the next response, "there's no good sounding DAC's that have a proper built output stage"

Let's look at the Merging NADAC for example. It's been lab tested to handle 300 ohm impedance's, and can even handle 0 ohm impedance's (dead short) it has more gain than many stand alone preamps. So why would a preamp be required in conjunction with this DAC?

 

[MadFloyd]

There's also the issue of having more than one source. While I might try the NADAC direct to my amps, it ultimately wouldn't be a solution as I have an analog source.

If DAC manufacturers really want to promote using their product as a preamp they should provide at least one analog input (MSB does this I believe).

 

[bonzo75]

There's also the issue of having more than one source. While I might try the NADAC direct to my amps, it ultimately wouldn't be a solution as I have an analog source.

If DAC manufacturers really want to promote using their product as a preamp they should provide at least one analog input (MSB does this I believe).

So does Lampi

 

[DaveC]

Oh, so you're talking a DAC/preamp in one box then Blizzard, lol... I do agree this could have advantages, but it also limits you quite a bit to those DACs that do have good VCs and output stages.

Not everyone wants to be limited like that. What if you have an integrated amp, it'll have it's own VC, and VCs are expensive for anything decent, seems like quite a waste. This is like you asking why don't we all just just buy all-in-one systems because it has to be better that way... well, it could be but it's rather limiting.

AND, you've never heard a decent preamp, sorry but it's true. Just like before you're making too many assumptions and forming opinions on subjects without enough experience.

 

[Blizzard]

There's also the issue of having more than one source. While I might try the NADAC direct to my amps, it ultimately wouldn't be a solution as I have an analog source.

If DAC manufacturers really want to promote using their product as a preamp they should provide at least one analog input (MSB does this I believe).

Yes if you have a turntable this is a real issue. But it's quite an expense just to have the ability to switch to a turntable. I agree if the product is designed to be turntable friendly, it should have an analog input. But a small % of audiophiles use turntables, and moving forward there will be even less. In the case of the NADAC, Merging believes that their product is better than most turntables. Which is true as the average guy doesn't have a rig like yours.

You may even find the pass sounds better to your ears. It will likely add richness, but it won't be richness that was in the original recording.

 

[spazmatron]

Oh, so you're talking a DAC/preamp in one box then Blizzard, lol... I do agree this could have advantages, but it also limits you quite a bit to those DACs that do have good VCs and output stages.

Not everyone wants to be limited like that.

AND, you've never heard a decent preamp, sorry but it's true. Just like before you're making too many assumptions and forming opinions on subjects without enough experience.

I used to have that big krell cdp.. 25 c or something... Big analog pre built in. I loved it, till the laser mech broke

 

[DaveC]

Yes if you have a turntable this is a real issue. But it's quite an expense just to have the ability to switch to a turntable. I agree if the product is designed to be turntable friendly, it should have an analog input. But a small % of audiophiles use turntables, and moving forward there will be even less. In the case of the NADAC, Merging believes that their product is better than most turntables. Which is true as the average guy doesn't have a rig like yours.

You may even find the pass sounds better you your ears. It will likely add richness, but it won't be richness that was in the original recording.

I know you live in some desolate wasteland up north, but really... turntables are on the rise, as of now there will be MORE of them moving forward.

I do have several sources and switching between them by changing cables is much less inconvenient vs my remote control. And my DAC does NOT have a volume control. And I'm free to choose a DAC in the future that does not have one, nor do I have to be concerned that it's output section will be robust enough.

 

[spazmatron]

I think in the future people will use digital but buy the vinyl sleeves so they have something to feel and smell... Sounds crazy but just might happen soon.

So Mike when your burning vinyl keep the sleeves as they might be valuable soon.

 

[Blizzard]

Oh, so you're talking a DAC/preamp in one box then Blizzard, lol... I do agree this could have advantages, but it also limits you quite a bit to those DACs that do have good VCs and output stages.

Not everyone wants to be limited like that. What if you have an integrated amp, it'll have it's own VC, and VCs are expensive for anything decent, seems like quite a waste. This is like you asking why don't we all just just buy all-in-one systems because it has to be better that way... well, it could be but it's rather limiting.

AND, you've never heard a decent preamp, sorry but it's true. Just like before you're making too many assumptions and forming opinions on subjects without enough experience.

You are talking about limitations of a foregone era. Yes if you have a turntable, and you don't want to unplug and plugin cables everytime you want to change sources, yes a preamp is handy. But if you have a competent DAC with a proper output stage, it's not your DAC's fault that you want to have a turntable. You are only degrading DAC performance for the convenience of easy switching to the turntable.

Not sure why you keep saying I've never heard a decent preamp. In the example I posted earlier with the Mirus DAC and Sim audio Pre, the preamp cost double what the DAC did, and it still sounded better without the pre.

Do you consider this a lousy preamp?

http://www.soundstagehifi.com/index...659-simaudio-moon-evolution-740p-preamplifier

 

[MadFloyd]

So does Lampi

News to me.

 

[Blizzard]

I know you live in some desolate wasteland up north, but really... turntables are on the rise, as of now there will be MORE of them moving forward.

I do have several sources and switching between them by changing cables is much less inconvenient vs my remote control. And my DAC does NOT have a volume control. And I'm free to choose a DAC in the future that does not have one, nor do I have to be concerned that it's output section will be robust enough.

The latest popularity with turntables is just a fad that will be short lived. In order for something to be sustainable, it must be superior. And if your talking 0.001% of the market, it doesn't interest me.

Moving forward the only sources that will be required will all have digital outs.

 

[bonzo75]

News to me.

You can ask for a phono input built in. The inputs (RCA, SPDIF, AES, USB, etc) are all flexible.

 

[Blizzard]

I think in the future people will use digital but buy the vinyl sleeves so they have something to feel and smell... Sounds crazy but just might happen soon.

So Mike when your burning vinyl keep the sleeves as they might be valuable soon.

We have turntables with USB outputs now. There's proof people are only doing it because it's a fad, and they want to look cool when friends come over. Just like "pet rock" back in the 70's, the novelty will soon wear off.

Unless you spend 100+k, average DAC's in the $500-3000 price range a year from now will kill any vinyl rig.

 

[spazmatron]

We have turntables with USB outputs now. There's proof people are only doing it because it's a fad, and they want to look cool when friends come over. Just like "pet rock" back in the 70's, the novelty will soon wear off.

It the physical thing that won't wear off anytime soon, plus the perception of it being better will carry on regardless of fact. It will be cool to have a tt for the young, well it is in fact. Is a modern cultural phenomenon.

It's not worth worrying about Mike. Your happy with what you think is best and logic dictates that if you not right now you will be in the future, given the advancement of digital. What we need is a high quality universal recording format that stays within its class throughout the chain till it comes out your dac.

All will happen

 

[Blizzard]

It the physical thing that won't wear off anytime soon, plus the perception of it being better will carry on regardless of fact. It will be cool to have a tt for the young, well it is in fact. Is a modern cultural phenomenon.

It's not worth worrying about Mike. Your happy with what you think is best and logic dictates that if you not right now you will be in the future, given the advancement of digital. What we need is a high quality universal recording format that stays within its class throughout the chain till it comes out your dac.

All will happen

As far as I'm concerned, yesterday's over. Today will be over tomorrow. My mind is always 5-10 years from now. That's all I care about. Focusing on yesterday and today, is the fastest way to failure 5-10 years from now. This is because your competition is also thinking 5-10 years from now as well. So handicap yourself if you want, and see how far that will take you in the Information Age.

 

[853guy]

As far as I'm concerned, yesterday's over. Today will be over tomorrow. My mind is always 5-10 years from now. That's all I care about. Focusing on yesterday and today, is the fastest way to failure 5-10 years from now. This is because your competition is also thinking 5-10 years from now as well. So handicap yourself if you want, and see how far that will take you in the Information Age.

Uh huh.

So, five years ago you were predicting the music industry would sell 9.2 million records in the US alone in 2015 (a 52% year-on-year increase), and bring in $60 million more in revenue than ad-supported streaming services, right?

 

[DaveC]

Bliz, you're in fantasy land right now. Maybe what you're thinking will come to pass, maybe not. Right now a lot of people prefer turntables and their popularity is INCREASING. It's not a fad, it's a return to music that isn't irritating and fatiguing. Once DACs can offer better performance maybe TTs will become less popular, but that's not reality with (maybe) the exception of a few DACs that most can't afford. Just in general, audio hasn't really gotten any better in decades with rare exceptions, it's gotten WORSE. An old horn system with a RtR tape deck and SET amps will smoke almost any modern system with a digital source. This is reality!

On pres, I have no idea if the simaudio is any good, my guess is not because most preamps aren't good. The most important function of a preamp is volume control, here LDR and autoformers are king and can't be touched by digital VCs, especially for lower volume listening. Sorry, if you think digital VC is good, test it vs a good preamp and you'll find better results with the preamp. I've heard it with a Bent autoformer pre and Auralic Vega. This is the major reason preamps are generally better, they have better volume controls if they are a good preamp. So if you have not experienced a preamp that's better than a DAC with whatever crappy VC they put on there, then you have not heard a good preamp. I've never seen a DAC with a truly superior VC that can compete with autoformer or LDR based VCs.

 

[spazmatron]

As far as I'm concerned, yesterday's over. Today will be over tomorrow. My mind is always 5-10 years from now. That's all I care about. Focusing on yesterday and today, is the fastest way to failure 5-10 years from now. This is because your competition is also thinking 5-10 years from now as well. So handicap yourself if you want, and see how far that will take you in the Information Age.

Lol calm down Mike, the present can be fun! Being present is kind of important too...

My success or failure has nothing to do with musical reproduction technology. If yours does, and your a manufacturer then yes build for tomorrow but your still restricted in you design by what's available now. if your just putting other people's products together in a innovative way then best keep one eye on what people want now, one on what you think they will want tomorrow.

At all times remember I agree with you about digital, I am not the enemy of your digital utopia

 

[TBone]

We have turntables with USB outputs now. There's proof people are only doing it because it's a fad, and they want to look cool when friends come over. Just like "pet rock" back in the 70's, the novelty will soon wear off.

I sold my pet rock a long time ago when it retained some value, kept my turntable.

Unless you spend 100+k, average DAC's in the $500-3000 price range a year from now will kill any vinyl rig.

Playing what, LZ3 in high rez?