The pecking order
- Thread starter mep
- Start date
I wonder when the first "naughty" behaviour will occur: someone copies a CD to tape, after a little bit of digital mastering to get the sound "just right", and then sells them as genuine, high quality, analogue tape recordings. And how many will be completely fooled ...
Frank
Frank
If you would have relatively easy access to good source material (tapes), there should be no question in your mind. I have two Technics RS-1506's right now that both need service and rehab, but since all I have to play on them are home recorded reels, it hardly seems worth it.
I've mixed movie soundtracks from 35mm magnetic film tape (the same kind used by Everest and Command), as late as the 80s. Glorious sound repro.
I have had recordings done to tape, for later use in other media - and have somehow, without being able to precisely put my finger on why, preferred that to digital recordings. The latter opens for much greater convenience in post, of course, but is it all there?
Reading Amir and Bruce here, I feel I'm getting a confirmation of what I'm experiencing when listening, but I'm also aware that it's a question of personal preference, and that mine may be pointing away from the acute resolution of digital.
There's a reason why I'm stocking up on RTR-tapes and really appreciate the fact that the medium is experiencing a resurgence.
I have had recordings done to tape, for later use in other media - and have somehow, without being able to precisely put my finger on why, preferred that to digital recordings. The latter opens for much greater convenience in post, of course, but is it all there?
Reading Amir and Bruce here, I feel I'm getting a confirmation of what I'm experiencing when listening, but I'm also aware that it's a question of personal preference, and that mine may be pointing away from the acute resolution of digital.
There's a reason why I'm stocking up on RTR-tapes and really appreciate the fact that the medium is experiencing a resurgence.
Last edited:
I have tried it - recording the output of my ARC CD8 in a Studer A80 and playing it in analog. Unhappily it did not sound better than the original ... I even used the same type of reel to reel tape that the people of the Tapeproject use (RMGI), but it did not sound as good as their tapes.
Someone can always fool individual users for a short time, me included, but experts as those of we have in WBF will expose it . If not sooner or later we discover it Bias expectation does not last for long.
I have tried recording both CDs an Vinyl to my RtR deck, no contest...the original sounds better.
And you couldn’t be more wrong in your thoughts as to my motivation for starting the thread and your simplistic conclusions about the outcome. Some people just love to argue, even if it’s not their fight to barge into. I listed this under the general audio discussion and not R2R because it was a thread about multiple sources and stating your preference for their pecking order. No hidden motives and agendas here.
If you only have one source to listen to, there is no reason to ask you to state your preference or pecking order of source material. Your preference is obvious because you have only one source-there is no pecking order. This is just like two guys in an elevator and one of them farts, it’s not hard to figure out who did it and they sure don’t need to ask each other. This thread was not about a march down memory lane to discuss a table someone owned long ago. Ditto for distant R2R memories. I have said it several times already, I simply wanted to know if people who are actively listening to all 3 sources now in their homes felt the same way I do.
I didn’t ask people to defend their preferences or provide scientific data to back up their choices in the order they stacked them in. Sam placed DSD in second place. I didn’t jump him and demand anything from him. There are no right or wrong answers to people’s preferences. I certainly wasn’t going to be upset if other people’s preferences didn’t match mine.
I certainly never intended to upset anyone who has settled on a single source and now feels compelled to justify that decision by jumping into this thread and start asking for scientific data to prove how one source could possibly sound better than someone else’s favorite.
Not to put a dampener on this thread, BUT I was at my local record show on Saturday....about a 150 thousand records available for purchase ( maybe more)......when was the last time that you went to your local RtoR show...?
While this point may not be relevant to the quality of the presentation of the media in our systems, I personally have little to no interest in RtoR simply due to the lack of available media. Personally, I would much prefer to maximize my vinyl system and leave it at that.....just IMHO.
Point well taken Davey. I can't argue with you.
Frantz-I simply asked for people who currently use all three sources to rank them according to their preference (pecking order). If you don’t have all three sources, you are not in a position to answer the question that I asked. And being vested in digital was one of the three sources. If you were only invested in LP playback, it would have been the same. If you only have one source, you can’t provide the feedback I was looking for.
Of course it does Frantz. The hierarchy represents your preferences. You made a decision to get out of vinyl and go strictly with digital because your preference turned to digital sound reproduction. There is nothing wrong with that. It’s a decision you made which does reflect your personal pecking order.
The hierarchy should be whatever you feel it is. As I told Tim, there are no wrong answers, just people’s preferences.
If I ask a simple question which requires the ownership of a digital source, a table/arm/cartridge/, and a R2R deck, your still entitled to hold an opinion of how great digital is, it just didn’t fit in with the question I was asking of people who have all three sources. I don’t know why that concept is becoming hard to grasp for some people. And with you Frantz, I understand that English is not your first language and I try to be very mindful of that.
I for one have not questioned anyone’s analog gear in this thread.
Frantz-I understand you had a very nice table/arm/cartridge and made up your mind that you prefer the sound of digital. That’s fine; it just wasn’t relevant to this particular thread. It’s relevant to all of the other digital/analog food fight threads (and I know I started some of them in the past).
Really. I loved my reel to reels, Gary. I owned Tascams, and I rented Studers and Revoxes (and the studios around them) most weeks of my life for more than a decade. It wasn't digital that turned me against vinyl, it was R2R, before digital was invented. If I were a high-end speaker manufacturer and had to demonstrate my product playing analog, R2R would be the obvious choice. The lack of software won't be an issue, you'll get a tax write-off, and you'll be playing analog as it was meant to be. That doesn't mean I believe in some immeasurable magic. But R2R is glorious analog.
What we need to settle this thing is a null balance test -- digitize some really good R2R, play the two back, nulling out everything in both signals, and listen to what's left on the tape. Trust your ears, boys. Trust your, ears.
Tim
Bruce B
WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
We tried that already with the turntable thing... won't work as there is wow/flutter
The only way it would work is if we used a RtoR with timecode.
Tim,
Can't we have a thread without a permanent competition or fight, as initially suggested by Mep?
Everyone posted what his ears currently trust. We are enjoying everyone opinions, independently of the ranking.Anyway, do you believe that if audio experts such as those we are privileged to read in WBF would know how to make their digital systems play as the RtoR they would not be spending their millionaire incomes in luxury paradises?
That is not what we need in this thread. This was never about “settling” anything. If you want to start a thread that proposes to show that people’s preferences for R2R are based on distortions that aren’t present in digital, fine, go for it. This thread was/is about simply asking people how they would rank three different sources in order of sound quality as perceived by them unfettered by blind listening tests, null balance tests, or whatever tests. This is simply asking people what their ears tell them and how they would rank the sources. This wasn’t intended to be a scientific paper to present to any of the august bodies of audio engineering.
As for trusting your ears, that is exactly what I’m asking. What do your ears tell you about which of the three sources has the highest fidelity in your home, in your room, and in your system? The answers by those who are in a position to judge have been pretty damn close. Sam did place DSD in second place in his pecking order, and that is fine with me because it represents his preference.
Ahh, Frantz...
Thanks for noticing...hehe
I will note in passing that I find c1Ferrari .. Him of the unusual font and font colors.
Thanks for noticing...hehe
That's why I mentioned the "digital mastering": playing with elements of the original, ripped digital file, on a workstation to mimic what the process of copying one tape from an analogue master does, and sending that through the best DAC to feed the recording tape deck. Just taking the the standard, analogue output of an audiophile CD player I'm sure won't do it, the person faking it will have to be pretty fussy, but my guess is that it should be doable. And someone like Bruce might be needed to pick it ...I have tried it - recording the output of my ARC CD8 in a Studer A80 and playing it in analog. Unhappily it did not sound better than the original ... I even used the same type of reel to reel tape that the people of the Tapeproject use (RMGI), but it did not sound as good as their tapes.
Frank
In the event folks were unaware...
"RMGI Holland and Pyral SA in France have decided that Pyral SA will take over the manufacturing
and sales of RMGI studio and broadcast products."
I'm nervous I WAS using RMGI SM 900.
"RMGI Holland and Pyral SA in France have decided that Pyral SA will take over the manufacturing
and sales of RMGI studio and broadcast products."
I'm nervous
I WAS using RMGI SM 900.Whew -- am I glad my name was mentioned in another paragraph
Yes, Mark...thank you for that -- your tapes with tracking # will be arriving post haste
I sure hope so! I told you if you really started doing location recording I wanted to hear your work!
Similar threads
