The pros and cons of manufacturer/dealer/designer participation

[bonzo75]

One firm I worked at rated people as good, very good, excellent, and outstanding. Only the outstanding ones got promoted, and if you were good for two years in a row, you were asked to leave.

So we can drop the word c*ap and rate components from good to outstanding. Or the number of times you say fantastic can be used as one star, two star, etc

 

[Mike Lavigne]

One firm I worked at rated people as good, very good, excellent, and outstanding. Only the outstanding ones got promoted, and if you were good for two years in a row, you were asked to leave.

So we can drop the word c*ap and rate components from good to outstanding. Or the number of times you say fantastic can be used as one star, two star, etc

to my thinking 'that didn't suck' is my highest rating. as in i'm glad (possibly ecstatic) i spent my time listening to it. at this point in my listening evolution, it does take some seriously fine performance to achieve my 'it doesn't suck' descriptor.

it goes downhill from there.....

seriously i'm not serious.....in case anyone cares....i don't really ever think that deep about keeping a hierarchy of terms consistent. i live in the moment of feelings and reactions. i'm trying to have fun. feel good. it's not fun to say negative things, so i mostly just avoid it. we all see that differently i suppose.

 

[spiritofmusic]

But, "good" can be "great", yes?
As in, "that's some good stuff" when you smoke from yr stash.

 

[tima]

So we can drop the word c*ap and rate components from good to outstanding. Or the number of times you say fantastic can be used as one star, two star, e

One star, two star?

Or you can describe what you hear. Let others gauge. Without that "ratings" are crap.

Oh, but takes work.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Hmm, reminds me of the Seinfeld ep where Elaine is trying to order a Coke
Medium, Adult and Jumbo are her choices
Small is Medium, medium is Adult, and large is Jumbo
You want small? Go Child Size
Maybe if we don't like a component, we can rank it as "good for kids".

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . .
He met resistance with audio critics ...

But it's not just Michael Fremer, it's hundreds more.

I don’t understand. What are you trying to communicate with each of these sentences?

 

[shaned]

If we all decided to buy the same products based on reviews the world would be a very dull and uninteresting place indeed.

 

[marty]

I am like an addict and if people don't feed me with compares on a regular basis I will combust and explode

They don't just have to feed you with compares, Ked. They have to really feed you! You should be a food reviewer as well.

 

[kach22i]

I think the level of candor in professional reviews is understood - one is accustomed to reading between the lines for hints of weakness and shortcomings.

I expect forum posters to be less political and more blunt, but they do not have to be rude, and most are not to their credit.

No one likes walking on eggshells and having to be overly polite as sometimes a turd is a turd. In such situations maturity is called for, we all know the hints one can leave without going into the gutter.

If a maker of amps says measurements are everything, no need to voice it for inefficient speakers, then I accept his opinion as his opinion.

Like my old boss used to tell me, when it's your name on the front door you can run the business the way you want. Until then, do it my way.

Of course every now and then he would come back and admit I was right. I would tell him as long as he signed my checks every week I was happy.

 

[Elliot G.]

Well done Elliot.
I like well-reasoned opinions, observations and thinking because I learn from them. As a related aside, one of my frequent disappointments is looking at what people are playing or what concert they went to that is nothing more than a travelogue. It doesn't do me any good to look at album cover after album cover of someone's last spins or read the list of performers at their last concert. Tell me what you liked/disliked about it for goodness sake. Be a reviewer and teach me so I can expand my horizons and grow musically.

Marty, It has also been my desire from my early days to learn from those with more experience and knowledge than myself. As far as audio is concerned I was very fortunate to be in the right place at the right time. I was in NYC and got to meet HP and then Mike Kay and these two interesting men allowed me to travel the path with them and the amazing cast of characters that was the infancy of High End Audio. Between HP's pad and the Lyric upper east side "temple of the high end" anyone who was anyone in audio came by. Dahlquist, Sequerra, Marantz, D'agostino,. Levinson, Bill Johnson, Nelson Pass, Koetsu, Nakamichi, Ross Walker, Conrad/Johnson and on and on and on. We got to see and hear it all!
I have issues with the internet and the " one man survey" atmosphere and the declaration of expertise without qualification. I don't want to argue and I don't want to act in a way to seem condescending or arrogant but there is so much BS that it is really hard to participate without comment.I enjoy teaching and being taught and when I can learn more that helps me enjoy my music even more I am sincerity joyfully.

 

[Atmasphere]

Although its a bit off topic, there has been enough comment on negative reviews that I feel I have to pipe up, as I have some direct experience with this.

IMO/IME negative reviews are always done on thin ice and should always be taken with a grain of salt. Politics can affect a review, poor setup can affect a review and if a reviewer has a personal beef or problem that can do it too. I've experienced all of this- and more- money can have an effect too.

I like the way TAS has done their reviews in this regard; if something simply doesn't measure up for whatever reason they (used to, anyway) would simply send the product back. Out of sight out of mind. But some organizations will publish a bad review and you really don't know why its happened. Once I was in the Gryphon room at CES and witnessed a reviewer trying to shake them down for an amplifier. When that reviewer was refused he threatened them with a bad review (apparently he already had the product on loan in his home). Gryphon remained steadfast, but the bad review hurt them and it was years before they became more established again in the US after that.

Quicksilver has never done advertising. So when a magazine did a review on one of Mike's amps and Mike didn't advertise, the review went negative because that magazine connected ad revenue with editorial copy. This happened to me as well although I had been advised by friends of mine in the industry that this was a problem with the same magazine and so I had been careful to keep our gear out of their pages. But a reviewer from another magazine jumped ship and took a review of one of our products with him and when I realized what had happened I knew we might be in for it- sure enough, we started getting calls about placing ads and when we didn't place them, a follow up negative article appeared in that magazine.

I can go on but by now you should get the picture. Just because a negative review might be 'hard hitting journalism' doesn't mean that it actually is. There can be a lot more behind the scenes that never gets to print.

Regarding my presence on forums, I like audio. So I'm active, and I like to help out if I happen to know something about the topic, as I have a lot of troubleshooting experience (servicing consumer gear was how I put myself through college). I avoid making direct comments about our gear unless specifically asked; even then I try to avoid commenting about 'the sound'. I've been active on forums since the old audio.rec.highend line command days, IOW before the www. So I've been trolled and flamed and have over the last 29 years of internet figured out how to handle myself. IOW I can handle critisism; I've had plenty of it (and some deserved) over the years.

 

[Folsom]

I tend to agree with you. Yet there has to be a lot of caution. Things indeed can be system dependent, something that to his great credit Francisco (microstrip) never tires to point out. A fellow audiophile tested preamps in his system. One that seemed to be promising had some issues with tonality that went away when he switched from a well regarded interconnect with high capacitance to a more 'regular' one. He ended up preferring that preamp. What if he had not switched cables? This is just one example.

Movie, book and car reviews are easier. Those are all stand alone items. Yet the performance of components inserted into a system really can be system dependent, sometimes strongly so.

That's an example of something that is to neglect a manufacturers input, or sabotage an audition. This is a massive challenge for everyone... You send a piece of gear to someone and what happens if it gets mixed with something that is antithetical to good practices like a very high capacitance cable? You can tune a stereo with high capacitance interconnects, but then you've got a MESS whenever you try to change something else because you just have no idea what's going on, what is what... This is a prime example of the intense complications.

 

[NorthStar]

I don’t understand. What are you trying to communicate with each of these sentences?

I love Michael Fremer, most humorous audiophile reviewer writer ...
• https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...ero-real-final-photo.27677/page-6#post-564325

• https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...t-at-the-audio-salon.28077/page-3#post-578267

 

[marmota]

Manufacturers should be able to take criticism, as long as it is laid out by the user/reviewer in a coherent, comprehensible, clear and respectful manner.

As for the "everything is awesome", "bad reviews don't get published" thing...just look at Head-fi, to name one forum, and prepare for some serious eye bleeding. I don't want this peaceful, interesting place to be downgraded to such a sub-standard, gross category.

 

[NorthStar]

This is from a reviewer https://www.audionirvana.org/forum/...recommended-components-list?p=97483#post97483

After reading this I was wondering if it was "legal" (allowed, permissible...not above the law).
I guess it was...THX Ked for sharing a good read.

 

[ddk]

David,

IMHO there are no negative candid comments on other people high-end systems mainly because we are not just commenting on equipment or room, but mainly on how people connect with the system and music. Stereo is an illusion created by a few data points and our experience, when you tell another person that his system has problems you are also telling that something is not right in the way he listens to music. And surely people do not appreciate it ...

I react badly to the tipycal advice advice on "how to become a better listener" because they are most of the time just advice on training to educate preferences . But I praise expositions and discussion of methods to create systems when the objectives are clearly explained, as fortunately happens most of the time in WBF, where we know our industry experts and their preferences since long.

Francisco, not about negative reviews of other member's systems I was only pointing out that the awkwardness Peter mentioned isn't limited to his interaction with industry members but to any WBF member.

I don't see how making a few suggestions or comments is an assault on anyone's hearing abilities, on the whole IME most people are open to the conversation and only a small group can't handle it and get personally offended, but this is neither here or there nor does it help Peter with his discomfort.

david

 

[Bruce B]

Everyone gets a participation trophy.......

 

[NorthStar]

 

[microstrip]

I think Ralph (atmasphere) has a very good point! Manufacturer's have to be very concerned and proactive when it comes to a reviewed product in a magazine.
For example, I was very surprised that the review by Jason Victor Serinus of the Jadis JA200Mk2's was allowed to stand as it was presented. The owner of Jadis was present at the time of the initial set-up of these amps, and yet the distributor nor the owner were apparently too concerned about the more than lukewarm review that JVS gave to this product. I question whether the owner ( Calmette), a Frenchman who apparently does NOT speak English, truly understood what the review by JVS stated?
OTOH, the distributor ( Bluebird music) must have known what was going on...but perhaps they were not afforded a chance to rebut the review !
In this instance, JVS totally screwed up, IMO. Here we have an amp that he places with one of the most difficult speakers to drive in recent years ( the original Wilson Alexia) Did this reviewer not comprehend that really no tube amp would be compatible with the load that the Alexia presented?? Such a mismatch would lead anyone with a modicum of experience to understand that the results he obtained were due to said mismatch. Yet, here we have an example of a manufacturer potentially being damaged by a less than competent reviewer ( or if we give him the benefit of the doubt, by a manufacturer who inadvertently was unable to comprehend the review and conversely was unable to respond to it--either by requesting that it be pulled, or being able to rebut it).
Makes Ralph's point very well.

IMHO the final responsibility is from the Stereophile editor - IMHO this review should never have been published. It is a stain on the history of the magazine. I can't understand how they keep it online. The magazine has obligations towards their readers and this review is a poor service to them.

 

[howiebrou]

The idea that bad reviews can not be published is anathema to me. Excuses for supporting this viewpoint such as reviewers pressurising the manufacturer's lack of advertising in the said journal etc. is not an issue for only bad reviews. It is an issue of integrity, or lack of, and positive reviews are subject to this as well. I would consider a positive review which is obtained because a manufacturer advertises (or provides cheap goods) just as unholy as a bad review obtained because he won't advertise or couch favours.