I think I know where you're coming from, I have a feeling I understand ...
Compared to my SCs, the sound inserted a constant hush sound. It's as if the Scintillas are spiteful. It's obvious revulsion over oversamplers is so dramatic, you might think the speaker is punishing the listener.
Very colourful, I take that as meaning that there is a harshness, glare or edginess introduced with the change of SC's. In my setup, as soon as it's off-colour, if I put on an older, big band number the shriek of the brass section is impossible to bear, it's ear piercingly wretched! Is that the sort of thing you mean?
With the changer, I am curious whether conditioning it helps the sound. What I mean by this is putting on a very high level, very high frequency CD signal, on repeat for an hour or so before serious listening, obviously not with the amp switched on, or else at very, very low volume! I have a Denon Test CD which does the job nicely, has a band of pure 18kHz sine wave at 0dB. This hammers the DAC and digital circuitry, helps stabilise things. It may give some clues if you can try this ...
Why I particularly mention this conditioning is that the sound from my beast is similar to your changer when it starts from cold ...
I would also be very interested in the Sony Blu-Ray's playback of CD, how it stands up ...
Got a couple more questions that might help me get some further insight into things: I am not all familiar with Apogees, I can't remember reading how stable they are in the back and forward axis -- have you tried anything to lock them into position so that they less prone to rock back and forth?
Also, have you tried any of the tweaks with regard to power supply filtering, audio only power spur, and such like?
It's great fun having a conversation with oneself ...
Unfortunately Vince seems to be busy doing other things, so to make things more interesting it would be nice to hear from anyone lurking. Don't worry, I won't bite!!
The distortion is actually low level noise pollution which is the electrical current moving through every piece of equipment in the sound system. How to get rid of it? You have to create a super highway back to ground. Every system is different,the better the design ground in each piece of equpment,the less noise there will be. Each step taken is cumulative as it effects the whole. In my experience the greatest benifit will be increased dynamics,better saturation,clarity,soundstage,ect. and yes even invisible speakers are possible. Most modern speaker builders use computer programs to design crossovers,so it is possible to achieve the thought to be unachievable. FWIW.
The distortion is actually low level noise pollution which is the electrical current moving through every piece of equipment in the sound system. How to get rid of it? You have to create a super highway back to ground. Every system is different,the better the design ground in each piece of equpment,the less noise there will be. Each step taken is cumulative as it effects the whole. In my experience the greatest benifit will be increased dynamics,better saturation,clarity,soundstage,ect. and yes even invisible speakers are possible.
Yes, I agree strongly. Playing with earth arrangements is a crucial part of the mix. It is not the whole story, but unwanted currents definitely cause problems.
As do stray voltage spikes. Interference through the mains must be minimised, and I made a major effort here. My test gear is a high power incandescent bulb in a trouble light holder, plugged into an extension cord! I basically inject the worst sort of electrical noise possible by half disconnecting the plug of the lamp and the socket of extension cord, so there is ferocious and continuous sparking, a bit of an arc welder thing happening with the mains voltage. The aim was to be able to do this with zero noise coming from the tweeters at maximum volume, the ears right next to the cone, yet again!
Yes, I agree strongly. Playing with earth arrangements is a crucial part of the mix. It is not the whole story, but unwanted currents definitely cause problems.
As do stray voltage spikes. Interference through the mains must be minimised, and I made a major effort here. My test gear is a high power incandescent bulb in a trouble light holder, plugged into an extension cord! I basically inject the worst sort of electrical noise possible by half disconnecting the plug of the lamp and the socket of extension cord, so there is ferocious and continuous sparking, a bit of an arc welder thing happening with the mains voltage. The aim was to be able to do this with zero noise coming from the tweeters at maximum volume, the ears right next to the cone, yet again!
This took some doing, I can tell you!
Frank
I did not have to do what you did. I visited my local auto parts store and purchased 4 rolls of 12 and 10 ga wire and two boxes of yellow spade connectors. for about 15 bucks I transformed my system. It was akin to Moses parting the Red Sea or maybe a shot of horse laxative would be a better analogy. On my system it took about 14 hours to re-equalise everything,but when it came up,I just said WTH just happened.
Not all systems are alike and depending on the individual equipment grounds YMMV. The biggest culprits were my monoblock amplifiers and that was surprising because they have a pair of toridials in each. But then again maybe that was a critical reason there was such a improvement. I always follow the IC connections but everything ends at the preamp and the earth connection goes to the center screw on the outlet that the preamp is plugged into.
Well IMHO the infamous term Blackness is what I strive for, Nothing then Music. This IMO puts me in the seat...removing the noise Frank alludes too !!
Case in point, I have a number of Harry Belafonte at Carnegie Hall versions some are diff, seem like diff mixes to me, not unlike how AIX has a stage vs audience mix. The HB & CH has a cough, with the audience like mix, when todays environment is right, I have power conditioners and room treatments to minimize that, but temp, humidity, TOD still seem to matter to a degree, but I digress, that cough is really locked in, its like 6 rows down 10 seats over. That Blackness just locks in the imaging/soundstage so these surprises are most welcome.
Case in point, I have a number of Harry Belafonte at Carnegie Hall versions some are diff, seem like diff mixes to me, not unlike how AIX has a stage vs audience mix. The HB & CH has a cough, with the audience like mix, when todays environment is right, I have power conditioners and room treatments to minimize that, but temp, humidity, TOD still seem to matter to a degree, but I digress, that cough is really locked in, its like 6 rows down 10 seats over. That Blackness just locks in the imaging/soundstage so these surprises are most welcome.
Yes, whether you call it Blackness, or microdetail or something else, that is the magic ingredient that can make a performance so much more involving. As the system improves you can reach a remarkable state where instead of the music just coming from a particular room, the psychological effect is that it feels as if your whole home is merely an extension or an add on to the musical event, as if it is somehow attached to a stage and your listening room is only a very minor part of the proceedings ... !!
A similar sound event to your cough, recently enjoyed(??), is a DG CD of Schubert Quartets, at a key moment almost at the end of the last movement, beautifully captured in the distance, a tram outside going over a rail connection: clonk, clonk, clonk ... . I would have thought DG recording engineers would have been pretty fussy about that ...
I have a number of reasons to be skeptical of the whole power conditioning thing, but the main reason is experiential. I have a rather odd headphone amplifier; an all digital AV receiver. It shouldn't work, but it does, in spades. My theory is that it works because it converts everything coming into it - digital or analog - to 24/192 immediately, then processes everything - switching, tone, volume...everything - digitally, converting at the last minute before it amplifies the signal through an unidentified (to me) op amp to bring it up to a few hundred milliwatts for my Senns. We can argue all day about the potential quality of the DAC and the op amp, but it works better than any high-end headphone amp I've had, I think, because the signal path is so pure and quiet. And it is very, very quiet. What's my point? If there were significant power noise in this system in which all processing degradation and room ambient noise has been bi-passed, it would be more audible than such noise would have any chance of being through a normal speaker system. But it is very, very quiet.
What have I done to condition my power to handle such a clear view into its flaws? I plugged it into a generic power strip along side my cell phone charger and external hard drive.
I have a number of reasons to be skeptical of the whole power conditioning thing, but the main reason is experiential. I have a rather odd headphone amplifier; an all digital AV receiver. It shouldn't work, but it does, in spades. My theory is that it works because it converts everything coming into it - digital or analog - to 24/192 immediately, then processes everything - switching, tone, volume...everything - digitally, converting at the last minute before it amplifies the signal through an unidentified (to me) op amp to bring it up to a few hundred milliwatts for my Senns. We can argue all day about the potential quality of the DAC and the op amp, but it works better than any high-end headphone amp I've had, I think, because the signal path is so pure and quiet. And it is very, very quiet. What's my point? If there were significant power noise in this system in which all processing degradation and room ambient noise has been bi-passed, it would be more audible than such noise would have any chance of being through a normal speaker system. But it is very, very quiet.
Tim, on first blush I would suggest two things strongly in favour for getting good headphone sound from the receiver: first, as you suggest the volume control and other manipulating is done in the digital domain, no nasty pot's and analogue switches causing loss of sparkle; and secondly, since it is a receiver its power supply is hugely oversized for the job it's doing as a headphone amp. All the experimenting I've done tells me that a very understressed supply will do much, much better at at ignoring nasties coming down the mains, and will also do a much better job of delivering clean volts to the critical circuitry.
Well IMHO the infamous term Blackness is what I strive for, Nothing then Music. This IMO puts me in the seat...removing the noise Frank alludes too !!
Case in point, I have a number of Harry Belafonte at Carnegie Hall versions some are diff, seem like diff mixes to me, not unlike how AIX has a stage vs audience mix. The HB & CH has a cough, with the audience like mix, when todays environment is right, I have power conditioners and room treatments to minimize that, but temp, humidity, TOD still seem to matter to a degree, but I digress, that cough is really locked in, its like 6 rows down 10 seats over. That Blackness just locks in the imaging/soundstage so these surprises are most welcome.
Yes,total blackness,that's a description you hear to describe what you experience.
Live recordings are a great way to measure improvements. Last night I listened to Nancy Griffith,one fair summer's evening. It is really neat to hear all the way back and side to side to the audience. You can also get the "bloom" of the performance in the "bar".
There is a historic recording of a concert given at the Hollywood Bowl back in November 1963,2 weeks before JFK was asassinated. The concert features hollywood soundtracks conducted by each original composer. Franz Waxman conducts the soundtrack for "a place in the sun",just a stunning piece. you can hear a woman say wow at the start. This was broadcast by CBS and they used a 2 inch video recorder,so eveything is captured well. The ambience of the "bowl" is really beautiful. All this is revealed on a CD format.
The Tallis Scholars in Rome is another beautiful recording, Allegre's Misere has always been a favorite. The recording was miked minimally and the mikes are close to the audience. The audience clapping and response is very loud when given,it gives the illusion that you are there.
I'll just mention that I own several VAC renissance amplifiers. When Kevin designed these he put a switch located betwen the tube pairs to adjust the ground type. It is the only amp I have ever seen to have this feature. You can move the selector and hear the differences in the noise floor. Kevin used a elaborate star grounding scheme in the design. That is why when creating a super highway to ground ,some equipment does not respond well. In the VAC case there was no improvement, the design of internal grounds is one reason why synergies are created when switching equipment.
Now this does'nt mean a Marantz 2230 receiver will be transformed into a Lamm.not by any means, but it might bring the realisation that what you have now is exceptional to your expectations.
I really believe this is the best kept secret in audio for obvious reasons.
Does not the mains power quality vary from locality to locality? My engineer friend told me power conditioners rob the amp of current. There was one better than the rest, but I forgot what it is. I am firmly in the, "Trust your ears," camp. I can't any longer say getting the last breath of noise out of the drivers is the end all for music purity. I have just found out, though everyone already has heard this, the equipment you use have to be short path, and ultra simple, to ensure all the music gets through. It seems to me what I am doing is akin to what started all the SET movement. I remember many years ago, while we Americans were buying brute amps, in Japan there were people devising 1 watt systems. They used the lightest of cone material, and a precious little tube amp. The quest was, to let the music fully express itself.
That principle has been grabbed on by some audio component designers. Nelson Pass, employing his supersemitry circuit in a Zen 10 watt amp has opened the eyes of a lot of folks. Junji Kimura of 47 Lab also use the word Zen when describing the development of their simple pure circuitry. Audio Note, though long wired, makes very simple DACs.
Here is what I am getting at. My precious little transport, as endearing as it is, has introduced a faint fuzz when ear is pressed to the driver. This is completely inaudible from any distance from the speaker, and at high levels. Still, it is the first time I heard extraneous noise. It may very well be the transport, in uncovering the last bit of detail, it set the bar higher for some other component in the chain.
Yes,there is no substitute for simplicity in a well designed circuit. Less is more but there are many things that can be done to get to the top of the mountain.
...since it is a receiver its power supply is hugely oversized for the job it's doing as a headphone amp. All the experimenting I've done tells me that a very understressed supply will do much, much better at at ignoring nasties coming down the mains, and will also do a much better job of delivering clean volts to the critical circuitry.
Yes, but it's a digital amp which means that it is...(oh the horror, the audiophile shame!)...a switching power supply! Another conventional wisdom shot in the head in practical application.
Yes, but it's a digital amp which means that it is...(oh the horror, the audiophile shame!)...a switching power supply! Another conventional wisdom shot in the head in practical application.
Chord in England have done an excellent job of convincing people that you can get great sound with switchers, it's all about getting the engineering right! As have Halcro, from down here, though people differ markedly on this one ...
I didn't appreciate it had a switcher, that explains why simple connection to the mains is not a problem. But it may be injecting a bit of nasty stuff back into the mains, upsetting the AVi. Have you tried focused listening to the speakers, with the receiver powered up, as compared to completely unplugging the receiver from the mains?
Chord in England have done an excellent job of convincing people that you can get great sound with switchers, it's all about getting the engineering right! As have Halcro, from down here, though people differ markedly on this one ...
I didn't appreciate it had a switcher, that explains why simple connection to the mains is not a problem. But it may be injecting a bit of nasty stuff back into the mains, upsetting the AVi. Have you tried focused listening to the speakers, with the receiver powered up, as compared to completely unplugging the receiver from the mains?
Does not the mains power quality vary from locality to locality? My engineer friend told me power conditioners rob the amp of current. There was one better than the rest, but I forgot what it is. I am firmly in the, "Trust your ears," camp.
I'm not using a power conditioner, just highly intelligent(?!) filtering. As you say, the trouble is conditioners can solve one problem and create another: they reduce noise, but may not be able to deliver the current spikes demanded by the components' power supplies.
Here is what I am getting at. My precious little transport, as endearing as it is, has introduced a faint fuzz when ear is pressed to the driver. This is completely inaudible from any distance from the speaker, and at high levels. Still, it is the first time I heard extraneous noise.
Yes, but are the speakers plugged into the mains on the same spur/power board as the receiver. I'm talking about noise generated by the receiver's supply going down the mains cord to the house supply and then back up to the active's power supply. It even could be happening via RFI, through the air, from the receiver supply to the AVi. It may seem unlikely to you, but it could be worth trying ...
I'm not using a power conditioner, just highly intelligent(?!) filtering. As you say, the trouble is conditioners can solve one problem and create another: they reduce noise, but may not be able to deliver the current spikes demanded by the components' power supplies.
Has it always added this noise, or is this something new, happened recently?
