Raul, Audiogon is up and running again, they are finished with the transfer. See you again in 7 years !
The Sound of Analog, the Sound of Digital
- Thread starter Ron Resnick
- Start date
Uh, nothing was 'proved in Agon' as you put it; the idea that you can make apocryphal claims without proof of your own is pretty ridiculous
Facts have a way of not going out of date, so yes, nothing new in the facts I've presented.
Do you realize you are contradicting yourself in this passage??
I suggest that if you maintain your position of 'lost information' that perhaps you can provide some evidence of what you're talking about.
Twice and not for me and you failed ( as almost always ) to prove your opinion. As I said I don't want to argue AGAIN with you because is really futile and useless for any true audiophile ( you are an industry expert, way different. )
There is no contradiction: comes or can comes...........
Any pivoted tonearm has tracking error but at two null points. Due to that tracking error the stylus tip can't pick up the rigth information recorded in those groove modulations but even at the null points can't do it ( not even a linear tracker tonearm. ) because no one can make ( example ) Löfgren A tonearm/cartridge alignment with Zero tolerance with 100% of accuracy. Additional to that is that the stylus tip and other than the tracking error mentioned never has the rigth SRA in any LP ,no matters what, to pick up all the groove modulations information and many other things about that impedes analog can have the all recorded information during playback.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
If you don't see the contradiction drop your post into google translate, convert it to Spanish (for those who don't know, Raul's apparent first language is Spanish) and you should see it right away.
This bit about pivoted arms is irrelevent to bandwidth. When we do tests of our cutter head, we routinely cut a 30KHz test prior to doing the actual LP cut. Since a lacquer for a 12" LP is 14" in diameter, we usually do this test outside the LP region- in the area between 14" and 12" prior to the lead-in grooves. This allows us to play back the test and prove that everything is working, without having to play the actual LP cut, since doing so would damage it (lacquers are really only good for about 10 plays and are not played at all when sent to be plated). We do the playback on an old Technics SL1200 with the stock arm, using a Grado Gold, played back on a 1980s-era MM phono section. This allows us to know if any 'ordinary' turntable can manage the cut. Obviously the arm is no-where near the optimal position, yet no worries playing back; a sine wave at 30KHz or 40KHz plays just fine, so we have good assurance it will work even better when playing back in the geometry of the normal LP span. It probably does have increased distortion, but on a 'scope it looks like a proper sine wave and very much like the test signal when we sync the LP to the 'scope. So this whole idea of the stylus being unable to trace the groove is simply a bit of nonsense, probably told by digital-only advocates that don't know any better since they've no experience with the media. (Note: some reading this and familiar with the SL1200 may have noticed that there is a lighting and strobe setup on the Technics that gets in the way if playing a 14" disc- obviously we removed those bits and stuck them in a box somewhere should we ever sell off the turntable. It looks a bit ugly as a result but we're not caring about that...).
Another way of understanding this is that when the stylus looses contact with the groove, it will make a sound since the cantilever will try to put the stylus in the center of its range and this in turn induces a signal in the coil. In a system that is tracking poorly, this is easily heard; its called 'breakup' and the like. We've all heard it. But when you have a good system that is also properly set up, there is no breakup or sense of strain (which is simply increased distortion) whatsoever unless the LP is damaged. Anyone who experiences either the former or the latter is listening to a setup that isn't setup properly, or the gear is simply not up the task, like using a Voice of Music tonearm or the like.
Good to know that WBF cares about. Now
maybe this is one of the characteristics that " attracts " debate . For me that proposition is just out of question and I can't give my time in my room/system trying to achieve what's totally imposible to achieve:
the sound of the original musical event can't be mimic at any room/system because in a live event nearfield position exist only the air between you and the sound source. Those transients and its speed ( between several other things. ) can't be mimic.
The number 3 proposition is a really " hot " proposition because the word " subjectively " ( that's why I don't use it and only posted: " should be the MUSIC enjoyment but there are several MUSIC enjoy ment levels . " ). I want to explain about and why I said is " hot " :
historically subjectivity " command " our audio room/system decisions not our brain. Subjectivity is what the corrupted AHEE teached to all of us, we all ( not only customers/audiophiles but the audio world. ) belongs to that AHEE and almost all what we " know " came from there.
From where comes expressions as: " your ears tells the true ", measurements tell you nothing, buy what you like by your ears, that's what I like it, etc, etc, etc., yes from the AHEE.
AHEE never teachs us why been so important that subjectivity against facts/measures when in MUSIC exist measures: the pentagram, harmonics, etc, etc or at least why does not tell us what is rigth or what is wrong and why, examples: why BD TT and no DD ones, why non removable headshell tonearm designs, why no MM/MI cartridges but lomc, why tubes and not SS, why no subwoofers, cartridge/tonearm alignments , why SUT and no active phono stages, why boutique caps as Duelum/Jupiter/whatever and no Wima/Kemet/Visay ones, why all those sneak oil after market tweaks? ?, they told us the audio adjectives as: sweet, warm, but never talked of accuracy not even with the inverse RIAA eq,etc, etc,. but instead teached us that digital is not for audiophiles, teached that tubes clips " gentle " and many other useless corrupted information that today impedes that the true high end can grow up faster and faster.
We can have enjoyment/pleasing room/system experiences but I said ( proposition # 3 ): " are several MUSIC enjoy ment levels. " and there are indeed: the rigth ones and the wrong ones it does not matters that all those wrong ones levels " we like it ".
Number 2 proposition needs some kind of money but not so important issue as our each one attitudeand knowledge levels and skills on sound reproduction and MUSIC. First than all we have to be a music lover to take the " road " to the #2.
The number 2 proposition can't be achieved following the AHEE lessons, it's just imposible to do it. Let me explain a little about:
The foundation of any kind of MUSIC at any place belongs to the bass range, so the bass frequency range management is crucial and makes a paramount differences and things are that with out a pair of self powered subwoofers we can't achieve that #2.
Things are too that with out SS electronics can't achieve the #2 either because tube technology can't really fulfills the demanding bass management and other band frequencies, transientes and to many deficiences/limitations to name here ( it's not the issue here. )
But it's not only that SS electronics is basic for the rigth bass management but for its true low noise specially in the phono stage units. No, SS today amplifiers do not clips " gentle " ( as tubes. ) because never clips at all !. Btw, I read in other thread here that the CH puts out 12K watts.
Analog/LP is not growing up by all those where digital every day goes up and up. The " new " LPs offers by Elusive Disc or Music Direct or Acoustic Sounds are 90% ( at least ) re-issues or re-issues of the same title in different LP " format: 180gr, 200gr., 45rpm, 33.33rpm, one side recorded, etc, etc. We can choose from the same title 6-8 " versions " and almost all using digital tools.
Now, as happened that I owned for more than 10 years tube electronics as happens that 75% of my system listen sessions are through LPs not digital: go figure !
LP can't fulñfill proposition #2, digital can do it because is an alternative that just works for it: each CD is an original master recording and in any LP title say pressed 2K LPs and we listen to the test pressing and latter on the number 40 LP pressing both sounds different and if we goes from the number 40 to 520 differences are higher: losted information or at least covered.
Yes, I know for sure that tubes lovers will stay there, no problem with.
A real nice analog advancement just happens a few months ago when was designed the x-quisite cartridge and it's really an advancement ( not for the ceramic. ) because the change was at the " hart " of the cartridge motor rigth where the transducer works:
" Cantilever and coil body are made of a single high-strength ceramic piece. Accordingly, there is no more joint at the point of the highest dynamic load, and the music signal is transmitted absolutely pure from the diamond tip to the coil body . "
That's is a paramount difference in cartridge designs. I wish that instead ceramic the design could comes with all boron instead ceramic due that at the cantilever ceramic low young modulus is to low compared to boron: here we need non-resonant material and ceramic is to resonant and we can experience it through tonearm headshells, tonearm arm wands, cartridge body, TT mats even clamps.
Anyway really good cartridge advancement.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
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Raul you've been back one day and your first post is argumentative. Kindly stop or we bid you adios
Raul you've been back one day and your first post is argumentative. Kindly stop or we bid you adios
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I can't give you a precise answer due that I really don't know your true attitude behind what you posted.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
Mostly trying to be helpful , with a pinch of humor and a sprinkle of sarcasm
This is a AHEE approved forum
I find it works best if I answer questions without trying to ascertain the motives behind them.
Dear Ron: looks very similar of what I posted: " "that puts me nearer to the LIVE MUSIC experiences" but in reality me and other audiophiles still be faraway from there.
Btw, Ron there is something in my answers to you that you don't like it? maybe to long or something else? or something that needs and explanation?
That is important and your post is appreciated. Thank's in advance.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS.
I can be a little ignorant or way stupid or with out common sense to post this but please tell me in these posts which one is not argumentative: " 2, 9, 13, 29, 244, 283 and several others and why are not?
What have I to say? example: " that's is wrong " and that statement with out any explanation? How any human been can say something with out explain the reasons behind his statements? how can we communicate with other gentlemans with out trying that the other has at least the foundation/reasons of our statements ( wrong or good statements. )?
I think I can't go to listen any room/system of an audiophile place and tell him: " hey it sounds terrible/bad " with out any explanation. I can't do it that way in any action of my life. Can you?
Gentlemans I can go out for my self but I need understand where am I wrong?. Fair enough that you tell me. Don't you think. Appreciated.
Raul.
Sure.
On almost any forum based website, there are forum rules to which you have to agree prior to being granted posting privileges.
Also on most sites, its a violation of the rules you agreed to to attack other members in a personal or impersonal way. For example, saying that someone 'does not know what they are talking about' is considered abusive. Your post above was removed on this basis. Generally speaking, the principle that will allow you to continue posting on almost any website is 'attack the post, not the poster'. IOW if there is something you don't agree with, go ahead and say what ever you want about it- you can say 'that comment is stupid' but you can't say ' you are stupid for making that comment'- I hope you see that distinction.
I'm a moderator on another site that has very strict posting rules.
Other things that will often get you into trouble: swearing, using symbols to look like swearing, politics, religion and of course, trolling. Trolling is anything that is meant to cause anger, anxiety or the like from another member in the forum. An example of trolling might be 'tubes are BS', 'solid state sucks', stuff like that that are obviously comments with no merit and are clearly intended to get a rise out of someone else.
If you stick to these guidelines you'll stay out of trouble on almost any forum site on the web.
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
I can tell you that Raul has been warned twice now about the very antics for which he was banned many years ago. If it keeps up history will repeat itself
Getting back to the spirit of the track - let me be the first to start
Amazing stuff i have always asked myself what is the difference between analogue and digital ( i haven't listened to too many systems in the past, it's hard to do this in australia for various reasons). I have a lot of respect for Paul McGowan and i do believe he is quite right here as with quite a few members ( took me a while to read 17 pages lol) - in the high end systems the analogue seems to meld in to the digital, the importance now being is it a live system or not. Paul in one of his youtube videos explains how a recording studio will record a track and when it's played back it is like the mirror image of a microphone capturing a stereo field - fascinating stuff guys - I have learnt a lot from Paul over the years
from what i gather - the key characteristics of a system on what it should achieve is
authenticity - this will be soundstage, speed, decay
noise - what is the background that is not music - this will be room acoustics as well as the noise level of the system
I think thats my simple understanding of what is a great system just broken down in to a few words Keen on everyone's thoughts
Amazing stuff i have always asked myself what is the difference between analogue and digital ( i haven't listened to too many systems in the past, it's hard to do this in australia for various reasons). I have a lot of respect for Paul McGowan and i do believe he is quite right here as with quite a few members ( took me a while to read 17 pages lol) - in the high end systems the analogue seems to meld in to the digital, the importance now being is it a live system or not. Paul in one of his youtube videos explains how a recording studio will record a track and when it's played back it is like the mirror image of a microphone capturing a stereo field - fascinating stuff guys - I have learnt a lot from Paul over the years
from what i gather - the key characteristics of a system on what it should achieve is
authenticity - this will be soundstage, speed, decay
noise - what is the background that is not music - this will be room acoustics as well as the noise level of the system
I think thats my simple understanding of what is a great system just broken down in to a few words
Keen on everyone's thoughtsNo one can say I haven't been vinyl-first since the advent of the digital age. (Well....Ry Cooder's "Bop Til' You Drop" 3M digital-on-vinyl recording was an ear-ripping abomination wherein the eventual CD could sound better on some players....). But the convenience and scope of streaming with Tidal HiFi, Quobuz and a bit-perfect-ripped collection of 6000 CDs does tilt incidence of analog/digital listening by degrees.
Outside of playing CDs exclusively through optical players of various types 1982 - 2012, my (streaming) digital habits began late, and heavily favored casual streaming via phone + earbuds while having brown liquor & a cigar early in the very dark hours of a given post-midnight morning. I got more serious about it after I spent 2-1/2 years ripping 6000 CDs in my spare time, and more seriously engaging with hi-rez streaming services via R2R DACs in both of my hifi systems. That got me to analog:digital ratio of 80:20 outside of listening to Tidal HiFi via bluetooth phones from iPhone when traveling.
I iterated my way through some incremental improvements to both analog and digital sources, and the ratio remained not solidified-in-amber but elasticized by degrees, up and down. The leap for the digital side of the divide was, for two systems, buying Bricasti DACs. For my Zu Definitions system, the M21, which has independent paths for Delta-Sigma, R2R and DSD-in-true-1-bit in the analog domain; and an M1LE Gold for my Zu Druids 6 system. The latter being Delta-Sigma only. These DACs have refreshingly-organic tone not heard from most Sigma-Delta + the unmistakable tonal authenticity of great R2R decoding in one box in the case of the M21 Platinum.
The Bricasti M21 Platinum is $19,000; regular version $16,000. If you are a musicophile building a new, high-end system, will the cost of a turntable + tonearm + cartridge that = Tidal HiFi or Qobuz into a cached streamer > Bricasti M21 DAC cost more or less? We're getting to that point of cost-and quality equilibrium. Some ~$15K turntables + $8K tonearms + $5K cartridges + $5000+ phono preamps will struggle to compete with a Bricasti M21 alone, or when you have to feed two systems from one repository as I have to, Bricasti M21 + Auralic Aries G2.1 cached streamer. Looked at the price of new turntables, tonearms and cartridges lately?
The "organic gap" between best vinyl analog and "expensive-but-attainable" digital is narrowing to the point of impractical distinction, once you are above the entry-level vinyl/digital stage. Wait till we have AI-driven DSP! I'm not liquidating my vinyl. I am not uninstalling my turntables. I am not abandoning phono cartridges. But after acquiring Auralic streamers (which I have to say make any DAC sound better, for being relieved of jitter and noise) and Bricasti DACs, I'm now closer to neutral on analog v. digital. My listening is now 40/60% digital/vinyl AND pushing toward a tipping point. That wouldn't be true if I were listening to, say, DCS, MSB or even Mola Mola, all excellent decoders in the current market. Digital entrepreneurs are throwing a lot of new options at a wall to see what sticks, so absolutes are elusive. Vinyl & tape analog will always retain distinctive attributes esoteric hobbyists will prefer indefinitely. But outright organic, natural, tonal superiority by analog isn't any longer a given.
Phil
Outside of playing CDs exclusively through optical players of various types 1982 - 2012, my (streaming) digital habits began late, and heavily favored casual streaming via phone + earbuds while having brown liquor & a cigar early in the very dark hours of a given post-midnight morning. I got more serious about it after I spent 2-1/2 years ripping 6000 CDs in my spare time, and more seriously engaging with hi-rez streaming services via R2R DACs in both of my hifi systems. That got me to analog:digital ratio of 80:20 outside of listening to Tidal HiFi via bluetooth phones from iPhone when traveling.
I iterated my way through some incremental improvements to both analog and digital sources, and the ratio remained not solidified-in-amber but elasticized by degrees, up and down. The leap for the digital side of the divide was, for two systems, buying Bricasti DACs. For my Zu Definitions system, the M21, which has independent paths for Delta-Sigma, R2R and DSD-in-true-1-bit in the analog domain; and an M1LE Gold for my Zu Druids 6 system. The latter being Delta-Sigma only. These DACs have refreshingly-organic tone not heard from most Sigma-Delta + the unmistakable tonal authenticity of great R2R decoding in one box in the case of the M21 Platinum.
The Bricasti M21 Platinum is $19,000; regular version $16,000. If you are a musicophile building a new, high-end system, will the cost of a turntable + tonearm + cartridge that = Tidal HiFi or Qobuz into a cached streamer > Bricasti M21 DAC cost more or less? We're getting to that point of cost-and quality equilibrium. Some ~$15K turntables + $8K tonearms + $5K cartridges + $5000+ phono preamps will struggle to compete with a Bricasti M21 alone, or when you have to feed two systems from one repository as I have to, Bricasti M21 + Auralic Aries G2.1 cached streamer. Looked at the price of new turntables, tonearms and cartridges lately?
The "organic gap" between best vinyl analog and "expensive-but-attainable" digital is narrowing to the point of impractical distinction, once you are above the entry-level vinyl/digital stage. Wait till we have AI-driven DSP! I'm not liquidating my vinyl. I am not uninstalling my turntables. I am not abandoning phono cartridges. But after acquiring Auralic streamers (which I have to say make any DAC sound better, for being relieved of jitter and noise) and Bricasti DACs, I'm now closer to neutral on analog v. digital. My listening is now 40/60% digital/vinyl AND pushing toward a tipping point. That wouldn't be true if I were listening to, say, DCS, MSB or even Mola Mola, all excellent decoders in the current market. Digital entrepreneurs are throwing a lot of new options at a wall to see what sticks, so absolutes are elusive. Vinyl & tape analog will always retain distinctive attributes esoteric hobbyists will prefer indefinitely. But outright organic, natural, tonal superiority by analog isn't any longer a given.
Phil
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Are you still using the Luxman DD turntable you have listed in your equipment list for vinyl playback ?
A very interesting update, Phil! Thank you!
You mentioned the cost of the digital source components. What would you say is the cost of your analog source components you are using to compare to the sound of the digital?
Yes. I have two of the Luxman PD444 turntables, one in each system. The major upgrade from factory is that the original '70s-thinking feet were replaced by a combination of 1 lb. brass cones with a thin elastomer between the flat top of the inverted cone and the turntable plinth, with the cones' points in brass receptors on Aurios bearings. This change brought dynamics, attack, speed to modern expectations along with deepend tone and more expansive soundstaging.
Phil
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