The State of Digital

[JackD201]

Hi Amir,

I must have not been very clear. I meant that they take the high rez file and down convert and sell CDs and even hundred title per disc MP3 CDs. I'm not so worried about file sharing. It is this other abuse that I worry about.

This brings me to my day job. Among other things, I Chair the Special Committee on Intellectual Property Rights in our House of Representatives and do a lot of work with your Trade Department in trying to contain the rampant piracy that happens here in Asia. I also sit on the Optical Media Board. I was drafted to do the job because of my experience in media. My family owns a substantial share of one of only two major local TV and Radio Networks and I used to own a production house that made TV commercials. I went to the states to train in post production and returned only to be thrust into politics. Most folks on audio forums however know me by my audio side as an audio distributor and certifiably crazy music freak.

I would buy 24/192 for 3 bucks a pop no questions asked. The barrier I see aside from the piracy bogey man is the size of the catalog needed for the site to be interesting enough to enough people. The way apple is going, they just may offer quasi hi-rez or hi-rez as well. They already offer mp3 at .99 and aac labeled iTunes Plus at 1.20+ I believe. What's to stop them from authoring an error correction stripped version hence smaller but uncompressed version of 24/96 or higher for drive use and selling it for 2.99? iTunes Plus is DRM so Plus Plus or whatever will likely be as well.

Here's a hint of what's going on with them. I connected a Vestax/dJay control surface to my MBPro and cued up a playlist of purchased songs. A window popped up saying that the songs were DRM and that the software would need to down convert into lower quality to be of use. Hmmmmm. Seems even the retailer is very very selfish with the better stuff even for fair use situations. That's what I mean about the high probability of reluctance in distributing trully hi-rez files.

Jack Duavit

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

I am with Amir on that ... Copies (identical) of CDs are available on the Internet , they are not the most popular .. What are popular? the mp3 files ... They for the most part don't seem to care about Hi-Rez not by a long shot..
Digital is a problem the Music Industry has not yet fully come to term with. Digital copies are identical to the original.. there is absolutely no differences once the file is out there. A copy of a file is the same file and it can be copied a billion times with NO degradation ... DRM is simply a bother to legal owner of a music file... The real baddies will always find a way around it, regardless .. All it takes is for one hacker to break the encryption once and it spreads around ...
There are several standards in term of file compression the lossless being truly without ANY loss, nothwithstanding what some think they hear .. ape, FLAC, AIFF, etc are thoroughly equivalent in term of results: The exact SAME file, once decompressed ... but being a litlle smaller than the original (often 50%) they can be distributed through the usual channel .. An example, ATT DSL right now in Miami is pretty good at about 5 Mb/s , about 10 minutes to download a CD in ape or FLAC form ... Not bad and with FIOS or equivalent 5 mins or less With a 20 Mb/s FIOS or equivalent we get to less than 3 mins for a regular CD in FLAC, Hi-Rez would take longer but not an inordinate amount of time.. WIth 100 Mb/s to the home in the Horizon (Some countries in EAst Asia and others in Europe already have that) .. The delivery channel will not be an issue IMHO.
So the real issue seems to be how will the studios continue to make money ... I am not losing sleep on it .. they'll find the ways if there are any...

Frantz

P.S. I can understand that some albums are unlkely to be re-issued in digital formats but I believe that there are some services that do digitze albums. Also There exist really inexpensive and good A to D converters ... It could be worth experimenting ... Just play the album one more time and that's it ... We have people that could suggest good and inexpensive ADC.. We have the privilege to have some extremely knowledgeable people on that side of music who could help .. Any suggestions, BruceB, AmirM?

 

[JackD201]

From your perspective being in the US I'd agree with you totally Frantz but I am half way around the world in a developing country -slash- emerging market where the price of a Region 1 DVD is equivalent to the price of a sweat shop made, smuggled DVD player and half the monthly minimum wage. It is here in a country smaller than California but a third of your population where exact copies are prized. If one were to look at the pharmaceutical industry in our country in particular, to draw an analogy, 95% is made up of generic drugs by volume but the 5% of patented drugs makes for over 50% in dollar terms. I don't have the actual specifics yet but copies simply dominate the market here to an even greater degree for both music and movies. Region 3 DVDs sell for a market absorption adjusted price of around $12 and the quality copies for $3. This is true not just of my country but practically all of South East Asia and I would wager Africa and some Latin American countries as well. That is a HUGE market for high quality copies and the better the source the better the copy. Remember too that PC per capita in developing countries is nowhere near that of the US where they are as common as toasters almost. Hence for a great part of the world optical discs in the form of CDs and DVDs, through the proliferation of cheap region hacked playback devices will continue to reign as the preeminent format for a long time to come. Licensed or not. Do you guys really think a better picture and better sound was the sole driving force in the war between HD-DVD and BD? The other half of the story is that the consortiums were fighting it out to kill DVD. The same was true of the battle between DVD-A and SACD to kill CD whose patents and thus licensing incomes have run out. Same protagonists almost. Still as early as now, bootleg BDs have already begun to surface. The baddies do not rest.

From a global business perspective, I hope you see what I'm getting at. There is much at stake by making Hi-Rez available so easily. I did say that DRM can and will be cracked if there is monetary incentive enough. I'm just telling you guys what from where I sit, just one of those incentives are. It's almost like the the illicit drug ecstasy when it comes to bootlegs. Some are even "branded" with logos to say "Hey we get the good stuff" and pirates, pirate the other pirates established "brands". It's insane I tell you.

Delivery there won't be a problem. Elsewhere bandwidth is severely limited because of lack of copper telecom lines much less fiber. This is a major stumbling block again from a global perspective and will continue to be so until wireless technologies get up to task. Maybe 5G or 6G? 3G sure isn't enough.

So where will the studios make money? That goes back to my hesitance to jump in totally on what I view, no offense intended, as the new version of "Perfect Sound Forever". The format may be close to perfect, the playback systems close to perfect but like SACD or R2R hardly any titles to choose from because either the market is too small or the chance of opportunity losses too large for the owners of the rights to release them. There lies the answer to why labels as Amir pointed out want huge upfront sums.

I'm perfectly adept at making copies of LPs to digital and the equipment, I even have basic prosumer gear to do so. Like I said. I just don't have the time.

Jack

 

[Steve williams]

Jack

Thanks for making it clear to we here on the other side of the globe what is going on in your area re botlegs. Very, very insightful.

 

[amirm]

This may be a good time to ask that members add their location to their profile so that we know where we are coming from. Had that been the case, we would have known Jack's position better and he would also know that Frantz lives in Haiti, not US .

 

[mep]

Jack-I find your observations to be very insightful. There is always so much going on behind the scenes in this world of ours that so many of us are just oblivious to. Selling truly high-rez files via digital downloads would cause trepidation on the parts of music labels because once they are downloaded, the genie is out of the bottle.

I for one wish we could see the widespread availability of R2R tapes recorded at 15 ips 2 track with IEC equalization. Alas, I am sure it won’t happen. The cost is too great and the market is too small. The TP has been chasing 200 customers (they are only licensed to make 200 copies of each master tape) and they have yet to sell out a single title in their catalog in 3 years. I know they are coming close to finally selling out a title or two, but we are 3 years into this adventure. As someone who was thinking about jumping into this business, the thoughts of investing $100K or so to get started in order to chase less than 200 customers does not make for a good business case analysis.

If one cares to fish in the waters of analog, the best fishing is with LPs. Thank god the LP market is very strong and seemingly getting stronger every day. We are blessed with a large volume of great sounding recordings at very decent prices. LPs can still be manufactured cheaply per copy and quickly in large volumes. This is something that the R2R market just can’t compete with.

Mark

 

[Steve williams]

This is something that the R2R market just can’t compete with.

That's true but TT as great as it is, isn't as good as R2R

 

[mep]

Steve-It’s closer than you think. How many years has it been since you owned LPs and a good table? I know you are loathe to go down that path again, but…how much money do you have invested in your Studer and your TP tapes? Let me make a guess and say around $7K. So now you have at least $7K invested and you have less than 20 LPs worth of tape to listen to (because you haven’t received all 20 tapes yet). How much can you listen to the same tapes over and over? Now let’s take that same $7K and buy a used VPI HRX (or fill in the blanks here with your best table for the money) and spring for a decent cartridge. Now you can buy tons of new killer vinyl for around $30 each and on your system it should sound killer. Now let’s go ahead and buy some new blank tapes for $50 a reel and start recording some of that new killer vinyl while it is still brand new on your mighty Studer deck. Now you can enjoy your Studer much more of the time with music that will come so close to what you are hearing from your TP tapes that it will be scary. And you can keep buying more great music on LP any time you want to click your mouse and keep the circle rolling and the tapes spinning. Most LPs will fit on a single roll of tape for a total cost of around $80 each when you factor in the LP plus the tape. And, you get to listen to pristine vinyl on your Studer. I think it’s a bargain. Plus, your Studer isn’t sitting idle in your system as much as it probably is now.

So, even if you don’t want to own a zillion records, if you just bought a couple hundred, imagine how much that increases your library of music that you could listen to on tape if you wanted to. Not to mention how much more you would get to enjoy using your Studer. I know-I’m crazy.

Mark

 

[FrantzM]

mep

But if he has a good TT and I agree with you that 7K might provide a good , very good used TT with arm .. He can simply listen to it why would he need to record them on Tape ?? ..... Just playing with you Man...

Frantz

 

[Steve williams]

Steve-It’s closer than you think. How many years has it been since you owned LPs and a good table? I know you are loathe to go down that path again, but…how much money do you have invested in your Studer and your TP tapes? Let me make a guess and say around $7K. So now you have at least $7K invested and you have less than 20 LPs worth of tape to listen to (because you haven’t received all 20 tapes yet). How much can you listen to the same tapes over and over? Now let’s take that same $7K and buy a used VPI HRX (or fill in the blanks here with your best table for the money) and spring for a decent cartridge. Now you can buy tons of new killer vinyl for around $30 each and on your system it should sound killer. Now let’s go ahead and buy some new blank tapes for $50 a reel and start recording some of that new killer vinyl while it is still brand new on your mighty Studer deck. Now you can enjoy your Studer much more of the time with music that will come so close to what you are hearing from your TP tapes that it will be scary. And you can keep buying more great music on LP any time you want to click your mouse and keep the circle rolling and the tapes spinning. Most LPs will fit on a single roll of tape for a total cost of around $80 each when you factor in the LP plus the tape. And, you get to listen to pristine vinyl on your Studer. I think it’s a bargain. Plus, your Studer isn’t sitting idle in your system as much as it probably is now.

So, even if you don’t want to own a zillion records, if you just bought a couple hundred, imagine how much that increases your library of music that you could listen to on tape if you wanted to. Not to mention how much more you would get to enjoy using your Studer. I know-I’m crazy.

Mark

I understand your argument completely. For me it is where in my room I would put the TT and phonostage plus new cabling. Had it not been for the economic downturn I probably would have bought a TT but now on standby

 

[MylesBAstor]

I'm heavily invested in Vinyl as well as Digital It has never been about what is better as far as I'm concerned. It has always been about the software. I've accepted long ago that each does some things better than the other. If the day comes when I can get my hands on even just a hundred albums of even 3rd or 4th Generation 1/4" tapes that I truly love, you can bet that at the very least, I'll resurrect my Dad's B77 I've got in the warehouse because being a studio brat R2R kills them both.

Fact of the matter is a lot of my LPs will never see CD form much less SACD or DVD-A. No disc, no rip, no file unless I record through a good ADC and into a good DAW in which case....no thank you. I just do not have the time. I listen to the radio in my car a lot so I still buy lots of albums by new artists. It's looking that in the near future new releases may not even see optical disc form much less an analog pressing.That leaves direct downloads. Here's the rub.

While I see the promise of an acceleration in digital's evolution now hampered in the market by "fixed" standards being unchained as the industry shifts to software and more open hardware, the current stumbling block remains the delivery system and the integrity and cost of storage media.

The question is, just as is the case with an original master tape, if we will ever get our hands on the music. Will the RIAA members ever sell master quality files knowing that any form of DRM can be cracked? It would be the pirate's dream. Hack a hi-rez file and sell it to the un-connected third world in disc form. We can hotrod our computers to our hearts delight but really just how many titles will warrant it. We'll likely be limited to smaller labels just as SACD is today or razor thin libraries like that of The Tape Project.

As such, I'm not ready to put all my eggs in one basket, although for purposes of practicality and convenience, I wish I could.

Jack:

Let me say this. The music industry is in such a financial mess they would do anything for a dollar. Who would have thought the Tape Project could have released some of the tapes they did a couple of years ago-esp. the Deccas.

 

[The Smokester]

I understand your argument completely. For me it is where in my room I would put the TT and phonostage plus new cabling. Had it not been for the economic downturn I probably would have bought a TT but now on standby

Steve, Did you ever demo a good TT/phono stage in your system? If so, what was the outcome?

I agree with what mep is saying that there is a wonderful selection of reissues and also newly recorded vinyl coming out. I will bring a recently recorded seedee to BAAS...Hopefully it the will sound great on your digital player but, really, the vinyl is to die for.

The limited selection of r2r tapes for the average audiophile really makes me pause to go down this road even if it is the best medium.

 

[muralman1]

I believe audio engineers have led us CD listeners into an ever widening chasm of mediocrity. My bare bones non oversampling filterless DAC is better than any vinyl system I have had the pleasure to listen to.

 

[FrantzM]

I believe audio engineers have led us CD listeners into an ever widening chasm of mediocrity. My bare bones non oversampling filterless DAC is better than any vinyl system I have had the pleasure to listen to.

Hi

Interesting comment about your "bare-bones" DAC ... What DAC is it? And in what way do you think CD listeners are being led to an "ever widening chasm of mediocrity"?

 

[muralman1]

Hi

Interesting comment about your "bare-bones" DAC ... What DAC is it? And in what way do you think CD listeners are being led to an "ever widening chasm of mediocrity"?

I think we should make this a separate thread. Are not electrons and their charge maneuvered over the course through a DAC? I sincerely believe the signal is as sensitive to interference as an electron. Electrons do carry the signal in a tube. The electrons are run through grids to a positive plate. Electron behavior is governed by quantum physics. It is well known, that the slightest interference will alter an electron's behavior. The music in my system is governed by the tube amplified signal.

Folks bring their CD players here to see how they fair. They never do well. One fellow brought a Sony SACD Modwrite. He left looking for a NOS player. He happened to have the same amp as I.

 

[FrantzM]

I think we should make this a separate thread. Are not electrons and their charge maneuvered over the course through a DAC? I sincerely believe the signal is as sensitive to interference as an electron. Electrons do carry the signal in a tube. The electrons are run through grids to a positive plate. Electron behavior is governed by quantum physics. It is well known, that the slightest interference will alter an electron's behavior. The music in my system is governed by the tube amplified signal.

Folks bring their CD players here to see how they fair. They never do well. One fellow brought a Sony SACD Modwrite. He left looking for a NOS player. He happened to have the same amp as I.

muralman1

I am not sure I understand your reply. Could you clarify?

 

[muralman1]

muralman1

I am not sure I understand your reply. Could you clarify?

http://www.sakurasystems.com/articles/Kusunoki.html

The read at Kusunoki's DAC treatise explains my understanding of the NOS DAC. You can google oversampling DACs and their necessary digital filter and clock. I admit the math and science behind oversampling schemes are impressive.

Kusunoki says his thoughts will be proven wrong if people can hear above 24 Khz. Look up human hearing and you will see we can't. My hearing was tested far more sensitive than norm. I don't hear the distortion that can be measured above 24 Khz.

The CD format is amazing when you dig all the material out. The dynamic range is astounding. Detail seems infinite. The analog interpretation is complex in the extreme. On my system, the constraint placed on the music by oversampling plus filter is plainly audible. The loss of detail is easily heard listening to decay which is severely truncated. That is a loss of detail which pervades throughout oversampled music on my system.

SET systems I hear also bear out the supremacy of NOS players.

 

[Steve williams]

Vince

that article was an interesting read.
It is 14 years old. Are all assumptions made still valid? I wish I understood the whole thing

 

[muralman1]

Vince

that article was an interesting read.
It is 14 years old. Are all assumptions made still valid? I wish I understood the whole thing

Steve,

Yes, the article is 14 years old. The assumptions are valid in my experience. My speakers are 10 years older and they are certainly valid. I once tried an APL player. On it's back was a switch that changed the player between 1x and a multiple of that oversampling. It's owner and I agreed the 1x setting was far more life like. I talked to the tweaker who made the APL. He argued with me about which setting was better. He exclaimed, "The multiple times oversampling is designed to reveal accurate highs."

I know that the brilliant audio engineers working on ridding the music of INAUDIBLE distortion meant well. They just should have brushed up on their molecular physics beforehand. To prove they headed down the wrong path instituting oversampling, they now emphasize the necessity of clocks, and master clocks designed to take care of the problems their oversampling caused. They stared doing that 15 years ago. Kusunoki wrote about it.

I have heard SACD on decent speakers in a show room, and the sound was quite agreeable. The huge majority of systems will live with oversampling just swell. Meanwhile, technology keeps marching forward. New amps and preamps far better than before are setting strict requirements on the audio industry. My system is pushing into new realms of reality. What things I thought right about audio are being sacrificed on the altar of progress. Exquisite SET amp owners are going through the same narrowing of choices. I know this sounds like so much lunacy... Oh well, the proof is in the listening.

NOS just lets the music after the conversion from digital to analog be. Let it be, let it be, Kusunoki speaking words of wisdom, let it be~~~~~~

 

[JackD201]

I have Kimura's Shigaraki combo in my stable of digital components. In comparison to my Theta, Levinson, Accuphase and EMMs the NOS DAC has more texture, a more organic feel. One that is similar in this regard are the Zanden products. Both are NOS. I might add that they both filter post conversion, in the analog domain. Coincidentally, these are probably the CD Transport/DAC combos I have heard that are most similar to LP playback.

At least in my system(s), I can't honestly say that the Shigs dominate. They are better in the respect I've mentioned but the Accuphase and EMMs in particular float my boat more especially with classical CDs. The latter two are more like fine MCs while the Shig is more like the best MM carts or MCs using a spherical stylus. Now that is just the little Shigeraki. I have not heard the Flatfish combo, which lives in the same market bracket as the Accuphases and Emms, but at least one WBF member has said that that was the best he's heard from CD playback.