The State of High End Audio

[DaveC]

Abit like near field listening then.

But yes - I agree.

Yes, exactly. If you have speakers you can listen to nearfield, like single drivers, you are getting a larger ratio of direct to reflected sound. Horns and waveguides allow you to hear more direct sound at greater distances from the speakers and the effect is very similar to listening nearfield with single drivers. My goal is to build a speaker that sounds just like a good single driver but is truly full range, has lots of bass impact and great dynamics, and isn't SPL limited. Basically, eliminate the shortcomings of single drivers as much as possible. I can come VERY close to this and I can hit 120 dB peaks with very little distortion A waveguide/horn is necessary and the driver has to be built specifically for the waveguide, which is an interesting challenge...

 

[andrew_stenhouse]

You hit 120 db peaks?

 

[DaveC]

You hit 120 db peaks?

C-weighted using "fast" setting... That's where I stopped, just the woofer should be able to hit 123 dB (not weighted) according to simulations. It's massive... Audio Elegance TD-15H+, 800W power handling / 94 dB sensitivity. The top end can keep up too, no problem... it's about 102 dB efficient and should be able to take 100 watts or so, but that's a guess as the driver is custom and not totally tested yet. It really does sound like a single driver when you're listening nearfield, but has nearly full bass extension and for all intents unlimited SPL capability. Of course, it won't be everyone's cup of tea as Harman testing has revealed that the dispersion pattern isn't wide enough ...but I think some people will really like it. Those who want to hear all the fine detail in a recording with a 3-D, immersive soundstage will be happy.

 

[Geardaddy]

And here is a new topic - how much the enjoyment of your listening space influences how much you enjoy your music: I know when I have demo'ed music in a SOTA listening room , one which felt like a sound proof interrogation room (seriously I was looking for when the waterboarding was about to start), I disliked the experience however "correct" and impressive the sound was (and it was). On the other hand, give me a pair of LS3/5a's on a bookshelf playing via a LP12, in a cosy study with a fire going in winter, and I'm in heaven.

Agreed. Music is a mood altering substance, and anything that kills your buzz is counterproductive.

 

[Geardaddy]

C-weighted using "fast" setting... That's where I stopped, just the woofer should be able to hit 123 dB (not weighted) according to simulations. It's massive... Audio Elegance TD-15H+, 800W power handling / 94 dB sensitivity. The top end can keep up too, no problem... it's about 102 dB efficient and should be able to take 100 watts or so, but that's a guess as the driver is custom and not totally tested yet. It really does sound like a single driver when you're listening nearfield, but has nearly full bass extension and for all intents unlimited SPL capability. Of course, it won't be everyone's cup of tea as Harman testing has revealed that the dispersion pattern isn't wide enough ...but I think some people will really like it. Those who want to hear all the fine detail in a recording with a 3-D, immersive soundstage will be happy.

Well Frantz, you may have just found your speaker....

I agree with your philosophy. A high efficiency, waveguide, uncompressed, "single driver sounding" speaker sounds good to me....

Question: how can any self-respecting engineer be a cable guy? I thought coat hangers were sufficient?

 

[andrew_stenhouse]

I thought coat hangers were sufficient?

They aren't? bugger me ...

 

[DaveC]

Well Frantz, you may have just found your speaker....

I agree with your philosophy. A high efficiency, waveguide, uncompressed, "single driver sounding" speaker sounds good to me....

Question: how can any self-respecting engineer be a cable guy? I thought coat hangers were sufficient?

No doubt. UPOCC silver/gold alloy hangers, please I can't help it... I heard a difference between cables and am I just supposed to think I'm imagining it? That would be the response of someone more into dogma than science. If there was a way you could quantify the responses of all the people who have tried my cables there's no doubt there would be a statistically significant agreement on how they sound. Which means if there are no differences in cables, then the next most probable explanation would be mass delusion. The truth is, if there was a way I could measure the massive and obvious difference between cables I'd do it, but I don't know how. I wish I could, maybe in the near future some smart individual will be able to figure it out, until then I have to go by the next best thing, empirical evidence. And yes, I have done unsighted testing.

I also like the way really good single drivers sound despite their flaws. They do some things better than multi-driver speakers and some if this isn't really measurable either. There are so many really bad ones they all get a bad rap, but there are some incredibly good ones... but they all have significant drawbacks wrt dynamics below 250 Hz or so, overall low freq range and SPL abilities... if these can be solved you'd have the best speaker possible for my tastes. TAD has gotten close, their beryllium mid/tweeter is probably the best driver in the world... but it doesn't have the naturalness of tone a good paper-cone single driver offers. I have the TAD/Pioneer S-1EX as a reference and I won't be able to equal their near perfect frequency response and <1% distortion, but it'll be more fun to listen to and some things will seem more realistic/believable. Another good thing about single drivers is their lower cost and complexity, I will retain that aspect but there's no getting around the expense of a decent 15" woofer cabinet and 15" woofer. But smaller drivers just can't compare, so... I am just building the speaker I've always wanted but was not available, maybe some are close but not affordable. Some will like them, some will not. I expect them to be somewhat polarizing.

 

[esldude]

No doubt. UPOCC silver/gold alloy hangers, please I can't help it... I heard a difference between cables and am I just supposed to think I'm imagining it? That would be the response of someone more into dogma than science. If there was a way you could quantify the responses of all the people who have tried my cables there's no doubt there would be a statistically significant agreement on how they sound. Which means if there are no differences in cables, then the next most probable explanation would be mass delusion. The truth is, if there was a way I could measure the massive and obvious difference between cables I'd do it, but I don't know how. I wish I could, maybe in the near future some smart individual will be able to figure it out, until then I have to go by the next best thing, empirical evidence. And yes, I have done unsighted testing.

I also like the way really good single drivers sound despite their flaws. They do some things better than multi-driver speakers and some if this isn't really measurable either. There are so many really bad ones they all get a bad rap, but there are some incredibly good ones... but they all have significant drawbacks wrt dynamics below 250 Hz or so, overall low freq range and SPL abilities... if these can be solved you'd have the best speaker possible for my tastes. TAD has gotten close, their beryllium mid/tweeter is probably the best driver in the world... but it doesn't have the naturalness of tone a good paper-cone single driver offers. I have the TAD/Pioneer S-1EX as a reference and I won't be able to equal their near perfect frequency response and <1% distortion, but it'll be more fun to listen to and some things will seem more realistic/believable. Another good thing about single drivers is their lower cost and complexity, I will retain that aspect but there's no getting around the expense of a decent 15" woofer cabinet and 15" woofer. But smaller drivers just can't compare, so... I am just building the speaker I've always wanted but was not available, maybe some are close but not affordable. Some will like them, some will not. I expect them to be somewhat polarizing.

So what sort of measurements have you attempted on your cables?

 

[Gregadd]

Some of the biggest cable critics vacilate between saying cables have no effect and claiming they are tone controls.

 

[Purite Audio]

Yes cables with 'normal' electrical parameters ( L,C,R )will sound identical, if you change those parameters enough ie increase capacitance then you can change the sound of the cable. There are much more effective and less expensive ways of changing the FR of your system though.
Keith.

 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

Keith - I agree completely, and my own experiments with identical high quality DIY cables of different lengths, hence different LRC electrical properties, confirm this to my satisfaction. I am actually somewhat amazed that a dealer like yourself would tell it like it is. Hats off to you!

In all the random combinations of electrical properties that cables in the marketplace have, though, it is almost impossible for two different cables to have identical LRC properties. Hence, it is unlikely that any two different cables will sound quite the same. Listeners will likely have subjective preferences of one over another. Yes, sonic differences do exist, but the main reasons are much simpler than the very high profit cable industry and many audio pundits would have us believe.

Listening to cables is far from one of my favorite things. I have painstakingly listened to quite a few at very high and at more reasonable prices in comparison to others. Yes, I have heard differences. But, to me, those differences among quality cables contribute a really tiny, almost insignificant subjective difference in the overall scheme of things. I have not really ever considered unbranded generic cables, except for computer audio hookups. But, I have discovered some relatively inexpensive analog audio cables that I liked slightly better than much more expensive, heavily marketed ones. Price, like exotic metals or fancy, esoteric cable construction, guarantees nothing in cable performance in my book.


I acknowledge that my experience is entirely with solid state gear. Tube afficianados may experience greater differences with cables because of the input/output impedance, damping factor, etc. characteristics of tube circuits and their interactions with cable electrical properties.

I also agree that there are far better, much more easily controllable ways to voice one's system rather than painstakingly swapping cables and listening to them in succession. Ugh! What a pain that is, usually for little gain.

 

[Purite Audio]

I would have to look up exactly how much you would have to increase ,for example capacitance , before cables became audibly different.
Generally cables have extremely low LCR values , unless designed not to, Townsend Isolda, or VDH carbon for example.
I use Mogami, completely fit for purpose .
Keith.

 

[BobShermanEsq]

Yes cables with 'normal' electrical parameters ( L,C,R )will sound identical, if you change those parameters enough ie increase capacitance then you can change the sound of the cable. There are much more effective and less expensive ways of changing the FR of your system though.
Keith.

Normal? There can be different thoughts on what is normal Connectors and the quality of the connections can also play a part in the sonic.

 

[Purite Audio]

Normal? There can be different thoughts on what is normal Connectors and the quality of the connections can also play a part in the sonic.

I think it was Peter Walker who said, when asked his favourite cable, ' one that conducts' .
Keith.

 

[bonzo75]

I think it was Peter Walker who said, when asked his favourite cable, ' one that conducts' .
Keith.

Conductors don't make a difference to an orchestra either, you just need one that conducts

 

[BobShermanEsq]

Conductors don't make a difference to an orchestra either, you just need one that conducts

Some Conductors may disagree. A good movie. BTW.

 

[bonzo75]

Yes I have seen it, good

 

[Geardaddy]

Yes cables with 'normal' electrical parameters ( L,C,R )will sound identical, if you change those parameters enough ie increase capacitance then you can change the sound of the cable. There are much more effective and less expensive ways of changing the FR of your system though.
Keith.

I think that's overly simplistic. Cables do, IMO, make a difference, but the reasons why are a little more complex and cannot be explained away by high school level physics (or Keith in your case O or A-level physics). My intuition is some of the performance changes noted in a system with cable changes may correspond to varying abilities at noise suppression (EMI, RFI) and their effects on jitter for example: http://www.stereophile.com/rmaf2010/nordost_and_vertex_measurements/index.html#QMA7b6kY0HkmdZ4s.97

The same crowd that criticizes cabling also likes to poop on power conditioning. I am also a firm believer in conditioning and power management paradigms, and Shunyata has done a reasonable job of at least providing indirect data on its efficacy: http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/shunyata-being-used-in-hospital-to-reduce-noise-video.484217/

Now, when it comes to spending 200k+ on horn speakers, there is no argument there. The data is already present in spades. Functional MRIs have shown that people's brains light up when viewing expensive, blingy objects.....

 

[Folsom]

Here's one of many things talking about cables.

I could go on for awhile about construction of cables, but the easiest thing to say is that a freshman in tech school could achieve good L R C numbers & measurements, that doesn't mean his cable would please any of us! Good measuring cables don't necessarily set well with the ears, or you could all trade in your cables for some $32/set Blue Jean Cables (and suffer big degradation in sound).

 

[esldude]

Amazing how cable does all of these things, according to opinion, and none of it shows up in the output signal beyond LCR effects. If noise is an issue, sometimes possible, go balanced.