The State of High End Audio
- Thread starter FrantzM
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My question was directed at you Keith but others answered for you. Of course the slant ended up predictably about price. In the real world and not that of regurgitated one liners, enter a bulk supply store and try to find identical LCR, meter in hand.
Here's where I beg to differ. If I were to frame a question to Rob (please participate my friend
) differently and instead of asking what wire he would use ask what he wouldn't he'd obviously come up with a pretty long list of items. Cost would only be ONE consideration of many. You see cables are only the same property wise if they really are the same. Since you mentioned Mogami in what instances would you choose between W2319, W2524? These differ in many ways not just LCR. These are the entry level Silvers. Did you buy the Gold or Platinum which they do not provide specs for? Specs for microphonics is stated as *MAX. Would that tell you enough for all applications? Or in reality...did you choose Mogami because of their reputation (which is justly deserved IMO) and cost? That isn't wrong either but you present it as such. Fact is there is a very wide acceptable RANGE of LCR ratios that would work if getting something to work is the objective. Only application or set within an actual context does one determine what works "best". First you have to define that context, thus IT DEPENDS. Short story...
One of our partners is not an audiophile. He likes music like everyone else on this planet but couldn't give a rat's ass about gear. He does have a system however because his Dad is an audiophile and he got a hand me down pair of B&W 801 Matrix IIIs about 10 years ago. He asked me to complete the system on the cheap so I went rummaging around the classifieds and found some second hand Krell KAV separates for him, gifted him with some Oval 9 speaker cables that I was no longer using and some generic XLRs I had in my bin. Music played, smile on his face, no talk of soundstages or whatever. Mission accomplished.
Fast forward to New Years Day 2016. He calls my other partner and asks if we could come over because he said his Dad borrowed his amp some months ago while his Dad's amps were in the shop and now that they were back he wanted to hook the system back up. He lives 10 minutes away, I had nothing better to do and it was an opportunity to rib him about how my 8 year old could have figured that out. Best is that it was an opportunity to get together over a few beers. Yet.....when we did hook it up, there was intense distortion in one channel. After hunting down and finding the culprit which happened to be the IC from his player we simply asked him what he had lying around. What he had was a bunch of "free" ICs that probably came with a DVD player or a game console. We used that. Smiling face, mission accomplished. You have to care about differences for differences to matter.
My question was directed at you Keith but others answered for you. Of course the slant ended up predictably about price. In the real world and not that of regurgitated one liners, enter a bulk supply store and try to find identical LCR, meter in hand.
Here's where I beg to differ. If I were to frame a question to Rob (please participate my friend
Fact is there is a very wide acceptable RANGE of LCR ratios that would work if getting something to work is the objective. Only application or set within an actual context does one determine what works "best". First you have to define that context, thus IT DEPENDS. Short story...
One of our partners is not an audiophile. He likes music like everyone else on this planet but couldn't give a rat's ass about gear. He does have a system however because his Dad is an audiophile and he got a hand me down pair of B&W 801 Matrix IIIs about 10 years ago. He asked me to complete the system on the cheap so I went rummaging around the classifieds and found some second hand Krell KAV separates for him, gifted him with some Oval 9 speaker cables that I was no longer using and some generic XLRs I had in my bin. Music played, smile on his face, no talk of soundstages or whatever. Mission accomplished.
Fast forward to New Years Day 2016. He calls my other partner and asks if we could come over because he said his Dad borrowed his amp some months ago while his Dad's amps were in the shop and now that they were back he wanted to hook the system back up. He lives 10 minutes away, I had nothing better to do and it was an opportunity to rib him about how my 8 year old could have figured that out. Best is that it was an opportunity to get together over a few beers. Yet.....when we did hook it up, there was intense distortion in one channel. After hunting down and finding the culprit which happened to be the IC from his player we simply asked him what he had lying around. What he had was a bunch of "free" ICs that probably came with a DVD player or a game console. We used that. Smiling face, mission accomplished. You have to care about differences for differences to matter.
A long post of misinformation, and self soothing pablum.
You have to care about differences for differences to matter. You also have to have differences for differences to matter.
Money wasn't the key factor except to you apparently. You really have your hand firmly over your eyes to miss the important part. Does the signal transmitted differ in any way you can hear?
His post made perfect sense to me an I would think most here. There are different levels of listener. I can often listed to vocalist and I am able to hear differences in the microphones being used. The average listener would not have the slightest idea between a U47, a Korby or a cantaloupe.
I just presented you with a concrete example where money DID NOT matter. Who's got his hands firmly over HIS eyes?
I have some fairly expensive silver cables here WSS, a German manufacturer, I have some of Daniel Weiss' Chiron cables which I suppose are mid priced and Mogami, I just use the appropriate cable for the job, 110 ohm AES on XLR, s/pdif digital,analogue etc etc.
I am a fan of balanced connection though, Bruno recommends it for the Molas ,as does Christof Faller for the Illusonic.
Keith.
I am a fan of balanced connection though, Bruno recommends it for the Molas ,as does Christof Faller for the Illusonic.
Keith.
I think anyone who looks much into cable will recommend balanced connections whenever possible.
Doing some investigation into switching supplies leaking into cables I did find wrapping a cable 3 times around a heavily loaded 550 watt switching supply one could get audible artefacts. Moving single ended cables 6 inches away did drop everything below the noise floor. Wrapping some balanced cables 5 times around the same supply resulted in nothing audible and nothing above the noise floor. With all the concern for cable effects you would think balanced would be the first step to make above junk level cables.
I don't know what you mean by that statement Tim but logic dictates if you care about differences the same applies equally to sameness the latter being a requisite for consistency, reliability and repeatability.
If one doesn't care one doesn't care whether there are differences or not. It's a moot point either way.
So Jack, are you trying to say that this is the state of high end audio? *elbow into your ribs*
Tom
Do you own a dry cleaners?
I used recycled hangers from my dry cleaner so I am "green" in additional to providing SOTA electron transmission....
Not necessarily. There are a host of cable manufacturers who don't agree with you (for a variety of reasons). DaveC???
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
There are many manufacturers who do not believe in balanced cables at all. Lamm for one which I have used for 12 years is all single ended. He does use pseudo balanced XLR but this is essentially a single ended connection so lets not use a blanket statement about balanced as some have
There are many different lines of thinking - some say balanced, some say single ended is the best way to go, some say single ended for Analog and balanced for digital. Balanced only if you have ground loop issues or a long run greater than 5m
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Makes no difference to Vladimir. In fact I have a 9 meter run of single ended cable from my preamp to my amp without any concern for loss of signal gain
Technically balanced is the way to go,
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balanced_audio
but it is technically more complicated to design balanced components from input to output.
Keith.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balanced_audio
but it is technically more complicated to design balanced components from input to output.
Keith.
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