The State of High End Audio
- Thread starter FrantzM
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Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
FWIW I use a 10 meter pseudobalanced IC and I say again I have no noise in my system. When I visited David in the summer he uses the same electronics exactly as I and was using runs of 40-50 feet of single ended IC with speakers that are 115 DB efficient and he also has no noise in his system.
Go figure I guess
Go figure I guess
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
A thread within a thread! Who'd have thunk it? Let's do cable elevators next!
not sure I agree John. I was merely answering a question about going with balanced cables . Do you have a problem with that?
That has got to be the biggest claim of hogwash I have ever heard of. I would venture to say that you have just insulted more than half of our membership that uses unbalanced. The way you stated that was fact, when in fact it is situation, system and gear dependant. Also, one shouldn't need to provide measurements on noise. There either is noise or there isn't. That should be rather clear, even to the untrained listener.
Tom
No problem Steve.....I guess my attempt at a bit of humour didn't pass muster. Sorry about that.
Speaking of single-ended or balanced I always thought the latter was for longer runs, and that most personal setups due to much shorter runs wouldn't really benefit from them. I know when looking around at gear I never check whether something has balanced connections or not. It's a non-issue for me.
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
I completely agree John. In fact when I bought my gear from Vladimir and jknew about the lengthy run from preamp to amp I questioned this just as everyone did here as I was concerned about noise. He said with no hesitation that if there is any noise in my system as a result he would happily take back the equipment and issue a full refund.
The rest is history
The rest is history
Physics and electronics of audio are without emotion. If they damn your system performance, they damn your system performance. You can't curse your way out of that by insulting me Tom. Hogwash claim? How about sharing some data as I did to demonstrate that?
If you read the post you see that if you are using short cables with heavy, low resistance shield, the problem would be minimized. Since many systems are in this sort, those folks should not feel slighted.
First, noise is not binary. It has spectrum and amplitude. Second, who says it is clear to untrained listener? I have lost count of how many times my wife or son come up to me and ask, "what is that noise?" I ask, "what noise?" They say, "can't you hear it?" My answer sadly is "no." And then find out that they were exactly right. There was noise but these old ears could not hear it.
Second, even the best and quietest rooms have noise. Here is an article I wrote on that: http://www.madronadigital.com/Library/RoomDynamicRange.html
Sample data from listening rooms of different people:
Solid line shows threshold of hearing for a young person without hearing loss. In other words, present company excluded
. Notice that the average system has noise floor well above listening threshold. Only the best room measured was below this.Even the best recording spaces struggle to keep noise inaudible:
The above measurements were made with all HVAC turned off.
You have data like this, please come back. Otherwise personal outrage is not appreciated.
Physics and electronics of audio are without emotion. If they damn your system performance, they damn your system performance. You can't curse your way out of that by insulting me Tom. Hogwash claim? How about sharing some data as I did to demonstrate that?
If you read the post you see that if you are using short cables with heavy, low resistance shield, the problem would be minimized. Since many systems are in this sort, those folks should not feel slighted.
First, noise is not binary. It has spectrum and amplitude. Second, who says it is clear to untrained listener? I have lost count of how many times my wife or son come up to me and ask, "what is that noise?" I ask, "what noise?" They say, "can't you hear it?" My answer sadly is "no." And then find out that they were exactly right. There was no noise and these old ears could not hear it.
Second, even the best and quietest rooms have noise. Here is an article I wrote on that: http://www.madronadigital.com/Library/RoomDynamicRange.html
Sample data from listening rooms of different people:
Solid line shows threshold of hearing for a young person without hearing loss. In other words, present company excluded
Even the best recording spaces struggle to keep noise inaudible:
The above measurements were made with all HVAC turned off.
You have data like this, please come back. Otherwise personal outrage is not appreciated.
My comment was the condensed version
I use single ended also and have no issues with noise. But there could be noise that we do not hear,what do we do then? We need to find it and and eradicate it.
Good morning Mike (British Colombia),
Balanced connections are used by all musicians recordists artists singers opera lovers classical performers orchestral diapasons of the world.
@ home the same exact people live; in large mansions with multiple rooms for different activities and of grandiose aspirations.
Our dreams are becoming reality more each day that goes buy...because we make it happen...we aim and we shoot @ the target...with the arrow travelling all the distance necessary @ the required speed, unaffected by wind turbulence, and with tangential accuracy.
What connection's type are you using yourself @ home, and two do you think it matters for most users...professional and amateur hi-res music lovers from all classes of our society starting @ lo-end to mid-end passing by hi-end and ultimately reaching ultra hi-end...supreme apotheosis of the state-of-the-affair.
Brief, what sounds best from the bottom to the top. It depends? Would you rather be blindfolded and hear the music or be deaf and watch the movie?
Simply put; when we hear the cries of our firstborn, and that we look in his/her eyes...what strongest connection do we get from one another?
Are you using unbalanced connections @ home? What is your measured evaluation from your estimate opinion? :b
Balanced connections are used by all musicians recordists artists singers opera lovers classical performers orchestral diapasons of the world.
@ home the same exact people live; in large mansions with multiple rooms for different activities and of grandiose aspirations.
Our dreams are becoming reality more each day that goes buy...because we make it happen...we aim and we shoot @ the target...with the arrow travelling all the distance necessary @ the required speed, unaffected by wind turbulence, and with tangential accuracy.
What connection's type are you using yourself @ home, and two do you think it matters for most users...professional and amateur hi-res music lovers from all classes of our society starting @ lo-end to mid-end passing by hi-end and ultimately reaching ultra hi-end...supreme apotheosis of the state-of-the-affair.
Brief, what sounds best from the bottom to the top. It depends? Would you rather be blindfolded and hear the music or be deaf and watch the movie?
Simply put; when we hear the cries of our firstborn, and that we look in his/her eyes...what strongest connection do we get from one another?
Are you using unbalanced connections @ home? What is your measured evaluation from your estimate opinion? :b
Good morning Bob,
Personally I only used balanced, and I like to keep the length between the pre and amps under 4 inches. And of course Furutech silver solder is used for the connections between pre and amps.
For many, it may not matter, for the majority of the world, something like a Bose wave radio is beyond their wildest dreams for sound. For others who like to push the envelope and do things the best way possible, this is another story altogether
Hey Tom, this thread could well represent the state of high end audio!
I think this thread might represent the state of WBF. If one member says he hears no noise in his system, another member will argue on a public forum with him that there must be noise because of some calculations he just made. And these guys are supposed to be friends and co founders/partners.
Amir, have you heard Steve's system? If so, and if you did not hear any noise from it, is it possible that it is because it has a very low noise floor or is it because you can not hear it with your just admitted compromised hearing? Would there be a conflict because your calculations tell you something exists though you and others can not hear it?
That's one heck of an (erroneous) assumption. Noise and THD are two very different things. One you can hear when the music is playing (maybe) the other exists when no music is playing at all.
Generally, the room is going to much noisier than the equipment anyways.
There's nothing wrong with balanced besides it's cancellation of even order harmonics, but it's huge overkill for most home systems and noise isn't usually an issue at all when there is no music playing, and even less so when it is.
Some people wouldn't be able to hear the difference between Home depot extension cord, and your top of the line silver/gold cables. Heck, some maybe would even prefer the home depot cables. Some people like peanut butter and pickle sandwiches. So I suppose beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Measurements certainly don't matter to many, so we can scratch that off the list. What matters at the end of the day is if you get enjoyment from your system. That's all that matters.
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Guys. I am not arguing. Rather I am merely stating what I hear and don't hear in my system. I was merely replying to the statement made about manufacturers and balanced cables. I do take exception thiugh to people telling me me what I should be hearing in my system even though they have never heard it. This is becoming a familiar theme here. . Why Lamm shuns balanced is certainly not known to me but again he offered a full money back guaranty if there was any noise in the system.
Physics and electronics of audio are without emotion. If they damn your system performance, they damn your system performance. You can't curse your way out of that by insulting me Tom. Hogwash claim? How about sharing some data as I did to demonstrate that?
If you read the post you see that if you are using short cables with heavy, low resistance shield, the problem would be minimized. Since many systems are in this sort, those folks should not feel slighted.
First, noise is not binary. It has spectrum and amplitude. Second, who says it is clear to untrained listener? I have lost count of how many times my wife or son come up to me and ask, "what is that noise?" I ask, "what noise?" They say, "can't you hear it?" My answer sadly is "no." And then find out that they were exactly right. There was noise but these old ears could not hear it.
Second, even the best and quietest rooms have noise. Here is an article I wrote on that: http://www.madronadigital.com/Library/RoomDynamicRange.html
Sample data from listening rooms of different people:
Solid line shows threshold of hearing for a young person without hearing loss. In other words, present company excluded
Even the best recording spaces struggle to keep noise inaudible:
The above measurements were made with all HVAC turned off.
You have data like this, please come back. Otherwise personal outrage is not appreciated.
Why is "hog wash" always a bad thing? I would think keeping one's hogs clean would be a positive.
BTW: Thanks for the link to the article. Is this quote something you concur with? “two ears and a brain are much more analytical than a microphone and a meter!”
Regards
Bob
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