The State of High End Audio
- Thread starter FrantzM
- Start date
If you're hearing the noise itself in your system you're either a special case or your equipment has something wrong. What you do hear is the affect the noise has on it. However aside from massive RF problems due to radio transmitters nearby, I've never noticed much of noise affects from IC's. Power, now that's another story, a much different one; it's always noticeable when you take it away.
I prefer single ended for IC's, typically. The music with balanced often is a bit flat/lifeless to me. That doesn't mean there are not balanced things I like. What would I choose for my own? Single ended for IC's, but there may be balanced operations in the appliances.
Single ended IC's have noise attenuation as well, depending on construction.
I've got an 800 pg. book that any of you are welcome to come have a read, it'll explain how cables and other things work with noise. You won't have to "guess and check" (construct unknown quality of design and measure) with simple things like cables because you'll know exactly what you're doing, and the limitations of your materials.
I prefer single ended for IC's, typically. The music with balanced often is a bit flat/lifeless to me. That doesn't mean there are not balanced things I like. What would I choose for my own? Single ended for IC's, but there may be balanced operations in the appliances.
Single ended IC's have noise attenuation as well, depending on construction.
I've got an 800 pg. book that any of you are welcome to come have a read, it'll explain how cables and other things work with noise. You won't have to "guess and check" (construct unknown quality of design and measure) with simple things like cables because you'll know exactly what you're doing, and the limitations of your materials.
WBF was founded by two very different people with respect to audio. It has been that way from day one. But that is the state of Steve and I, not the forum. The rest of you are different and your posts reflect the state of WBF, over which we apply no censorship or control.
I provided both subjective data that showed noise sensitivity is person dependent as a subjective matter, and then provided data as an objective matter using the math and measurements. So both sides were represented thank you very much.
I heard his system in his old house.
I was not there to analyze his system. I sat in a chair and he played a few clips for me and then I had to run.
I have no calculation for Steve's system. I presented the way one measures it and there was no interest. So we are left wondering if his system is noisy and he can't hear it, or that other way around. The data says given his cable lengths, the former possibility is quite real. His age also says that his ability to hear noise is diminished. That again emphasizes the former theory. We can settle this easily as we can measure noise but he is unwilling.
BTW, download an SPL app to your phone and tell me if you see 0 dB SPL on it in your listening room. 0 dB SPL is still audible but for grins, go ahead and report back what you see.
Balanced XLR connections:
? This line is exactly four (4") inches long (on my own screen): ____________________
? This line is exactly four (4") inches long (on my own screen): ____________________
There you goWhy is "hog wash" always a bad thing? I would think keeping one's hogs clean would be a positive.
.For matters related to sound reproduction in a room, yes. The moment you go before the signal reaches the loudspeaker, then two ear part almost disappears but the brain impact remains.
There's noise in all of our systems, even when they're turned off. How it manifests itself is another story.
Again, no one really hears the noise itself unless something is awfully wrong. But the affects of the noise is prevalent on every stereo on the planet. How much so varies. Very good designs reduce it down to very little.
For example, Lamm in this photo uses an input filter that's higher grade than the average IEC inlet filter (trash). It's not the best filter but it fits in their enclosure. From there you can see there's a few more possibilities for noise reduction in this power base. (I see an audiophile fuse, too)
Again, no one really hears the noise itself unless something is awfully wrong. But the affects of the noise is prevalent on every stereo on the planet. How much so varies. Very good designs reduce it down to very little.
For example, Lamm in this photo uses an input filter that's higher grade than the average IEC inlet filter (trash). It's not the best filter but it fits in their enclosure. From there you can see there's a few more possibilities for noise reduction in this power base. (I see an audiophile fuse, too)
Well theory aside I have 4 set-ups. I have 3 stereo and 1 HT. In the stereo set-ups 2 are unbalanced and 1 is balanced. No issues with noise in any of them. In the HT I have a combination of gear some using transformer, balanced and unbalanced. I had to install a star ground system in that one mainly because of the cable feed. After that no noise. I don't see balanced vs unbalanced as a big issue most gear is manufactured unbalanced and some gear that is "balanced" really isn't. Just because it has XLR inputs doesn't really mean much. As I see it no noise no issues.
Rob
Rob
Yes, it's an interesting and useful tool, although not always accurate ... my choice app(free) doesn't calibrate too accurately with my current phone. Still, it provides some indication of comparative noise levels between systems and rooms. This app was far more accurate w/my old galaxy3.
So it depends of the level in quality mic* used inside our smartphones (iPhones); those are extremely miniaturized.
* Or do we plug a top notch mic using the USB connection?
* Or do we plug a top notch mic using the USB connection?
Currently using Neotech UPOCC copper, but I would like to try Dave's Silver gold blend. Another bonus with short cables is the cost savings
I can make 3 full sets from only 2 ft of cable
Mike, if an amp (monoblock) is positioned near its respective loudspeaker, and that the preamp sits between the two speakers...then normally (average) the balanced XLR interconnect from each amp to the pre would be roughly four feet long. ...And the speaker wire about two feet long?
The length of the wire from the AC plate to the main junction box in a home, is on average (mansion) between ten and hundred and fifty-five feet long.
And from the main junction box to the nearest street transformer that distance is between roughly fifty and nine hundred and seventy-seven feet long, give it few feet longer or less.
Now, the street electrical wire is made of copper; would it be possible to replace it with silver wire?
Last: From the street's transformer to the town central electrical supply (main grid), the distance can be well in excess of forty miles. ...Say between twenty and hundred and sixty miles. And those wires are still made of copper. The gauge is what...9AWG?
* If using speaker wires of say 4AWG @ home (mansion), can it help?
The length of the wire from the AC plate to the main junction box in a home, is on average (mansion) between ten and hundred and fifty-five feet long.
And from the main junction box to the nearest street transformer that distance is between roughly fifty and nine hundred and seventy-seven feet long, give it few feet longer or less.
Now, the street electrical wire is made of copper; would it be possible to replace it with silver wire?
Last: From the street's transformer to the town central electrical supply (main grid), the distance can be well in excess of forty miles. ...Say between twenty and hundred and sixty miles. And those wires are still made of copper. The gauge is what...9AWG?
* If using speaker wires of say 4AWG @ home (mansion), can it help?
Yes you are describing some of the limitation of audio gear from yesteryear. You must use long cables somewhere in the chain using this type of form factor.
Well when it comes to electricity this is a different matter. It all depends on how the equipment is designed. Some is more sensitive to mains interference than others. Anyways the electricity isn't carrying the audio signal, so it's completely different. It's just supplying the gear with the electricity required to function.
What really matters is how clean, and strong this electricity is when it exits the output of the audio equipment's power supply. Whether your powering it with a Honda generator from 1976 running dirty gas, or pure sine power out of a PS Audio P10 power plant, it doesn't matter.
Way ahead of you Amir. Jim Smith measured this a couple of years ago when he was here. And I just remeasured now. I first tried my digital Radio Shack meter, but it does not go below 60dB. It just reads "low". So I tried the "SoundMeter" app on my iPhone and just got a reading of 27 dB (A weighted) and 29 dB (C weighted) between wind gusts at my listening position. There is currently a winter storm, so it is very windy. It peaks at about 36 dB during loud gusts. At night, when listening, I have measured 25 dB. The house was built in 1795 and my listening room is on the first floor near a street corner, though there is not much traffic. Being in the historic district, I can not install insulated double pane windows, so I have only historically correct single pane true divided 6/6 sashes. I did replace the glass with laminated glass to cut some of the noise when restoring the windows. I'm sure other rooms are much quieter.
Additional information is that at normal listening levels I do not hear any noise out of my speakers from the listening seat. At 1" from tweeter or mid range driver, the noise level is 29 dB (A) and 31 (C) at normal listening volume, so about a 2 dB gain when the system is powered on relative to system off. If I turn the volume to max, I can hear 37 dB (A) and 40 (C) noise 1" in front of the tweeter and midrange drivers, but I can not listen at this volume as it is way too loud.
I've never heard of a room approaching 0dB SPL. What is the measurement of your room? And do you know what the noise floor measurement is for the typical listening room?
I would have thought your range completely normal, similar here, fairly quiet residential street.
Re noise try setting the volume control to your usual level , and then listen to the speakers without music signal, should be silence.
Keith
You are correct as 30dB is a quiet room. Specialty built rooms around the world barely get anywhere near 0dB. According to Guinness the records in (was) -9db at Orfield Labs, Minneapolis.
The key to the level of silence is the fact that the walls, floor and ceiling absorb all sound, rather than reflecting it, as most surfaces do. Thus the term anechoic: no echo. It’s so quiet, you can hear your own organs: your heart, stomach, even your ears, which make a tiny amount of noise. It turns out that it’s not an especially pleasant experience, especially in the dark. The longest anyone has ever spent alone in the chamber? Forty-five minutes.
Orfield Labs uses the anechoic chamber to test the noise levels of various products like LED lights. But watch out: it could easily become a place to drive people mad.
Yes this is very weird. Suggesting a plainly superior quieter method of interconnection, and people really get their hackles up about it. I am trying to think of any other area in high end audio that people opt for the inferior method and defend it. Sometimes in other areas equipment is quite adequate, but high end companies and customers insist on at least a little bit of overkill just to be sure. Yet in this one instance the definite better method is decried, the other method defended as not a problem. In this case good enough is good enough and don't bother with going beyond it. And only in this one case best I can remember. I wonder why that is?
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
I don't disagree with a word you said but do you also wonder why it is that reputable manufacturers have not and never will use balanced connections on their products and that one manufacturer would have given me a money back guaranty on his product if their was noise in the system from his gear. So please I for one don't disagree. All I am saying is their is no detectable noise for me with a 10M run and it is not age related so let's not introduce other deflecting arguments to what I said. BTW the system Amir heard in my room in Northern California used a 12 meter run and there was no noise. If it were there he would have heard it. There was none.
I used balanced cables throughout all but the last 12 years of my almost 50 in the hobby when I went with the manufacturer I continue to use now. It was the very first question I asked of the manufacturer because balanced cable throughout my systems past was always the way it was. I posted his comments here and I have had no issues so once again have you ever wondered why that is?
I used balanced cables throughout all but the last 12 years of my almost 50 in the hobby when I went with the manufacturer I continue to use now. It was the very first question I asked of the manufacturer because balanced cable throughout my systems past was always the way it was. I posted his comments here and I have had no issues so once again have you ever wondered why that is?
Umm, no. It's not weird at all. Some don't believe the increased complexity and cost of a fully balanced system is worth it in a typical home system. Not sure why that's so hard to understand, as it happens to be the case that many, many people use single ended systems without noise issues.
Maybe I think it's weird you'd want to opt for a more complicated, expensive way of doing things that offers no benefits whatsoever to 99.9% of people with normal home systems?
We also have to look at our equipment. As Steve mentioned his amps are SE only. So are many great products, you do not just snap your fingers and make them balanced.
There is so much great sounding equipment out here. Balanced Vs SE is one of the things I would not rule out, but I would not obsess over it either.
Similar threads
- Locked
