The State of High End Audio

[amirm]

Good grief, Amir. You asked me to take an SPL noise level of my room with an iPhone app. I did so. I never claimed it would be close to 0dB.

What? I didn't quiz you on why it was not 0 db.

I wrote that I was way ahead of you simply because I had done this two years ago with Jim Smith, meaning precisely that, that I had already done this before you asked me to do it. I did it again yesterday with the same results. It is not a question of wanting to get ahead of you. Your tone is like a veiled threat or something, kind of weird.

Your perception is quite poor to arrive at such a conclusion. You post some data and I explained how that data is not relevant with respect to how we hear noise. That is how the two ears and brain are superior to a measurement. If Jim suggested you use that to determine noise level, point him at my article and ask him for his response or ask him to come here and comment. It is a technical discussion and nothing to do with the personal spin you are putting on it.

For some reason, I think you are the one grinning. These exchanges are very tiresome. And you never responded to my question of what the noise level in your room is with a similar iPhone app or what the reading would be for a typical listening room. Please answer those questions for me. Data is a powerful tool to cut through arguments. What is the noise level in your room using a similar iPhone SPL app?

So you are in a competition with me on whose room is more quiet? And you want to get there with this metric after I explained how useless this measurement is?

The type of measurement you need to do and you see an example of it from me, is here: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...Measurements-Understanding-Time-and-Frequency

Just because you think you can tell how fast your car goes by looking at your RPM meter, it doesn't mean I am going to follow you there. Did you even read the article I linked to?

 

[amirm]

Apologies, I misread your post. I thought you said using "balanced" connections one would still get hum. But you said "unbalanced", and yes, in that case, one is open to hum. Sorry!

Oh no worries at all. No need to apologize.

 

[PeterA]

So you are in a competition with me on whose room is more quiet? And you want to get there with this metric after I explained how useless this measurement is?

No competition. I never claimed my room was quiet. I simply complied with your request to give you an SPL measurement from an iPhone app and I did. I was hoping to learn something. I asked that you to do the same out of curiosity, so that I could have another data point. Someone did suggest that my SPL measurement seemed about normal. I appreciate that knowledge.

You did commend me on providing a measurement and how it is a powerful tool to cut through arguments. Now you claim my data is not relevant to how we hear music. I though I was doing what you asked me to do. Now you seem to be insulting me for some reason, and I have learned something new about you.

If you want to contact Jim Smith, please do. I have learned a lot by reading his book and meeting him. You may too.

I should add that your telling me that my "perception is quite poor" is, in my view, condescending, and a violation of your own TOS because you are addressing something about a poster and not his post. It seems personal and I find your tone rude and offensive.

I wish you well, Amir, but I am no longer enjoying this exchange.

 

[Blizzard]

The whole argument is foolish anyways, because the only way anyone is going to realize if something is truly better is if they actually have a demonstration in person, and hear it with their own ears. You can't hear things over a forum. And measurement data is useless information for most. Kinda like me describing why our BMW handles so good to my wife before we bought it. She simply doesn't care why, but she appreciates the end result. But it took her actually driving it to realize this, explaining it before hand was like talking to a brick wall.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

The whole argument is foolish anyways, because the only way anyone is going to realize if something is truly better is if they actually have a demonstration in person, and hear it with their own ears. You can't hear things over a forum. And measurement data is useless information for most. Kinda like me describing why our BMW handles so good to my wife before we bought it. She simply doesn't care why, but she appreciates the end result. But it took her actually driving it to realize this, explaining it before hand was like talking to a brick wall.

from your mouth to God's ears.

 

[Steve williams]

Gentlemen

I would suggest the following

Arguing like this only serves to fan the flames. If anyone finds a post to be in violation of our TOS, even if you aren't the poster, I suggest that you report the post by pushing the small little triangular icon with an "i" in it (at the bottom left of the post in question) which will bring up a comment box for you to voice how you feel the post is in violation of TOS. These reported posts are all evaluated by the admin team so rather than bickering here, report the post BUT only if the post is in violation of our TOS NOT because you didn't like something or someone. This will reduce on line bickering and will quickly allow the admin team to know about the post. Thank you all

I purposely did not post in green

For those who haven't read our TOS perhaps this is a good time

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?1207-Terms-Of-Service&p=13195&viewfull=1#post13195

 

[Blizzard]

from your mouth to God's ears.

I'm not saying the data presented isn't the truth, I'm just saying when someone closes their mind off to hearing the data presented, the only way they will understand that the information provided is indeed factual, is by a hands on demonstration. And the demonstrator must be present to ensure the test procedure is preformed properly. A video of the event would also be helpful to prove to the readers on the forum that even the stubbornest of naysayers can be taught new things.

 

[rbbert]

Your enthusiasm for using measurements to back the performance your system is palpable. It is a powerful tool to cut through arguments, isn't it?

Alas, this is one situation where you don't want to get ahead of me. SPL numbers in your room are of zero value in determining how noisy your room is *to your ear*. Your ear is highly non-linear with respect to frequency range. Its sensitivity dramatically changes depending on the same frequency. Not only that, the sensitive curve itself is level sensitive as we see in the classical Fletcher-Munson listening tests: (edited)

Amir, do you know what A-weighting is??

 

[Geardaddy]

Frantz, again, I beseech you, for the love of God....stick with your headphones....

 

[Geardaddy]

Question: how can any self-respecting engineer be a cable guy? I thought coat hangers were sufficient?

I guess I am partly to blame for the foam generated about cables with my tongue-in-cheek pot shot at DaveC about the oxymoron of being an "engineer" cable designer (I just could not take any more babble about first reflections and room correction....boring). I know there are a lot of flat earthers who still believe cables have no real merit. All you need is either home depot zip cord balanced pro audio wire out of china. I just assumed they all resided on the DIY/engineer forums...

That aside, the issue of "noise" in a system is an interesting one. Many I know have become advocates of grounding (see the Audioexotics crew out of Hong Kong) and claim that reducing noise through grounding makes the sonics more organic, supple and "analog." The same can be potentially claimed about cable choices, power, etc, etc....

 

[JackD201]

Frantz, again, I beseech you, for the love of God....stick with your headphones....

Funniest post in months!

 

[Blizzard]

I guess I am partly to blame for the foam generated about cables with my tongue-in-cheek pot shot at DaveC about the oxymoron of being an "engineer" cable designer (I just could not take any more babble about first reflections and room correction....boring). I know there are a lot of flat earthers who still believe cables have no real merit. All you need is either home depot zip cord balanced pro audio wire out of china. I just assumed they all resided on the DIY/engineer forums...

That aside, the issue of "noise" in a system is an interesting one. Many I know have become advocates of grounding (see the Audioexotics crew out of Hong Kong) and claim that reducing noise through grounding makes the sonics more organic, supple and "analog." The same can be potentially claimed about cable choices, power, etc, etc....

Hey don't knock Home depot wire, chop the ends of this cable and you have the best speaker wire available in the industry. Just make sure to use at minimum 50' lengths per speaker for the best balance of timbral richness and tonal density




But on more of a serious note, I can imagine these grounding devices are much more effective when single ended cables are used. It makes a whole new sector possible in the audio industry.

 

[esldude]

Hey don't knock Home depot wire, chop the ends of this cable and you have the best speaker wire available in the industry. Just make sure to use at minimum 50' lengths per speaker for the best balance of timbral richness and tonal density

View attachment 25191


But on more of a serious note, I can imagine these grounding devices are much more effective when single ended cables are used. It makes a whole new sector possible in the audio industry.

My, my, my....how cynical you have become. Or is that sensical. Or maybe sinical.

Wasn't is just a few years ago a room received best sound of show using the very same cable you picture for the speakers on offer? No way could that be true with the eagle eared audiophiles in attendance.

 

[Blizzard]

My, my, my....how cynical you have become. Or is that sensical. Or maybe sinical.

Wasn't is just a few years ago a room received best sound of show using the very same cable you picture for the speakers on offer? No way could that be true with the eagle eared audiophiles in attendance.

You know it's been so long that I haven't used high end speaker cables that I should really try and see how this cable sounds. You never know. I wonder how many audiophiles on here have actually tried cable like this in their high end rigs? I'm definitely a believer that different cable has different sound, but I wonder if in a blind test, it could easily be picked out? Sounds like the perfect myth to bust? Who want's to organize a video taped event for my new thread?

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?19686-The-official-audio-myth-busting-thread


I would also love to try some "what makes a bigger difference" tweaks comparing $20000+ tweaks to $100 tweaks and see who can pick out which are which blind.

 

[Rodney Gold]

The whole argument is foolish anyways, because the only way anyone is going to realize if something is truly better is if they actually have a demonstration in person, and hear it with their own ears. You can't hear things over a forum. And measurement data is useless information for most. Kinda like me describing why our BMW handles so good to my wife before we bought it. She simply doesn't care why, but she appreciates the end result. But it took her actually driving it to realize this, explaining it before hand was like talking to a brick wall.

hahahahahaha...oh the irony...

 

[Blizzard]

hahahahahaha...oh the irony...

Just be be clear, I'm referring to different methods of implementing technology. Such as comparing different interfaces on the same DAC, different cables on the same equipment, different crossover components installed in the same speaker, and general tweaks that people claim help performance.

We can't just assume the layman will understand logic when presented to them. Hands on is the best way.

 

[Rodney Gold]

Just be be clear, I'm referring to different methods of implementing technology. Such as comparing different interfaces on the same DAC, different cables on the same equipment, different crossover components installed in the same speaker, and general tweaks that people claim help performance.

Clear as mud to me.

 

[Gregadd]

If something is on a recording and you did not hear it there are two bSically two reasons.
1. You were not paying attebtion.
Or
2. The listener or equipment is incapable of resolving the information.
The problem maybe something as benign as low volume. It is undoubtedly true that it was there all the time. Once noticed on a higher resolution you are more likely hear it on lesser systems. Probably to a lower fidelity.

 

[bonzo75]

hahahahahaha...oh the irony...

+1

 

[Folsom]

If something is on a recording and you did not hear it there are two bSically two reasons.
1. You were not paying attebtion.
Or
2. The listener or equipment is incapable of resolving the information.
The problem maybe something as benign as low volume. It is undoubtedly true that it was there all the time. Once noticed on a higher resolution you are more likely hear it on lesser systems. Probably to a lower fidelity.

OR you didn't notice because the stereo has proper dynamics, so while it's clearly there, it's during a rather loud passage.