The State of High End Audio

[PeterA]

I thought Private Messages were private. I am very surprised that Amir posted rbbert's PM on this public thread. Now that this has been posted, I suppose it means that Amir may post other Private Messages in the future. That is good to know as it will make people think twice before doing so. The point is that trust has been broken and it is hard to know what the rules are.

This all started when Amir requested that I take an SPL reading from an iPhone app of the noise level in my room. I did as he requested and added some additional information about my room in the hopes that it would be of interest and add context for Amir and others. The funny thing is that Amir then immediately ridiculed me for taking this SPL reading stating that it was useless. I know very little about this topic and was hoping to learn something. Amir, is an expert and the tone and attitude with which he responded and argued with me following that exchange is what I reported. That was my first ever report of a post on this or any other forum. That report furthered Amir's antagonism towards me. I and others think that Amir may be in violation of his own TOS by posting about me rather than what I wrote. And I still don't know what prompted the reaction, because I did what he requested.

Two moderators did apologize to me on behalf of WBF, and I appreciate that. I am not waiting for an apology from Amir, as I think it will never happen.

As I wrote before, this thread may demonstrate more about the state of WBF that it does about the state of the High End.

 

[spazmatron]

I thought Private Messages were private. I am very surprised that Amir posted rbbert's PM on this public thread. Now that this has been posted, I suppose it means that Amir may post Private Messages in the future. That is good to know.

This all started when Amir requested that I take an SPL reading from an iPhone app of the noise level in my room. I did as he requested and added some additional information about my room in the hopes that it would be of interest and add context for Amir and others. The funny thing is that Amir then immediately ridiculed me for taking this SPL reading stating that it was useless. I know very little about this topic and was hoping to learn something. Amir, is an expert and the tone and attitude with which he responded and argued with me following that exchange is what I reported. That was my first ever report of a post on this or any other forum. That report furthered Amir's antagonism towards me. I and others think that Amir may be in violation of his own TOS by posting about me rather than what I wrote.

Two moderators did apologize to me on behalf of WBF. I am not waiting for an apology from Amir, as I think it will never happen.

As I wrote before, this thread may demonstrate more about the state of WBF that it does about the state of the High End.

I have some sympathy for you here Peter as you know, but let's not bash the forum. In the main it's a fun place to come to shoot the breeze with people who are suffering from the same life effecting disorder, audiophile syndrome.

Ita a great resource for a large number of silent folk who only visit. And I am sure is a labour of love for all those involved in its creation and ongoing moderation.

It's worth remembering this is meant to be fun! Its not a court room or the last bastion of morality some like to think.

It's the sum of its parts, those parts being all of you. So any criticism should be followed by a good look in the mirror.

Enjoy your forum, and for those who love to quote business mantras the first rule is not to talk your self down under any circumstances! Worth remembering.

 

[rbbert]

FYI I created our Terms of Service and in doing so, reviewed a number of other forum TOS. I don't remember any of them having such terms. But I love to read them. Can you list a few?

How about the biggest one?

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/pages/forum-policies/

 

[amirm]

I thought Private Messages were private.

Mod: your right to their privacy stops at the line where respect and cordial treatment of the other party is concerned. Not only are those PMs not private, we highly encourage members to report such posts that clearly violate our TOS. So any thought you had of sending nastygrams and then sit back and enjoy such protection is yours, not reality.

As I said, we routinely see reported PMs. I have seen your PMs for example that were sent to others. We are not here to protect your improper conduct in PMs.

I am very surprised that Amir posted rbbert's PM on this public thread. Now that this has been posted, I suppose it means that Amir may post Private Messages in the future. That is good to know.

No, it means this as I post to Mike:

"Do not send me insulting, rude and obnoxious messages to me in PM. If you do so, I may disclose them to my peers in the forum admin and in public. Your only assurance of privacy comes from being respectful, professional and person of high ethics. To the extent you leave those at the door, please don't look to me to continue to follow them for you (although I do my best to do better than you/the PM sender do)."

This is what you should know. And not just about me, but others who can report and post the same in public. If not here, then elsewhere.

Learn to conduct yourself in a professional manner. Do not take advantage of any expectation of privacy to violate this important principle.

This all started when Amir requested that I take an SPL reading from an iPhone app of the noise level in my room. I did as he requested and added some additional information about my room in the hopes that it would be of interest and add context for Amir and others. The funny thing is that Amir then immediately ridiculed me for taking this SPL reading stating that it was useless. I know very little about this topic and was hoping to learn something. Amir, is an expert and the tone and attitude with which he responded and argued with me following that exchange is what I reported. That was my first ever report of a post on this or any other forum. That report furthered Amir's antagonism towards me. I and others think that Amir may be in violation of his own TOS by posting about me rather than what I wrote.

I hold no antagonism against anyone no matter how mean or nasty you get. I have been on forums for 30+ years and this is the lesson I learned to be able to enjoy it. I am able to put aside my emotions and judge things fairly objectively. You for example have repeatedly insulted this very forum I have co-founded. Yet I sent you this a while back:

"Thanks
Hi Peter. Wanted to thank you for the measured response in your poll thread and importantly, for conducting such a cordial discussion with me in the debate thread and giving me the feeling that you were considering the arguments I was making. It is far more than I have received in prior debates on this topic in AVS for example.

Thanks,
Amir"

You never answered me. Someone who did answer was Rob who threatened to quit the forum after saying the same unkind words about it and me. This is what I sent him:

"Please Come Back
Hi Robert. Just wanted to reach out to you and apologize for the role I played in having you leave the forum. I value or core members and have no intention of making them so upset as to depart us this way. We are just discussing audio and nothing like that should rise up to the level of human relationships. You are a valuable member of our forum and we share the love of music with each other. I hope you reconsider, come back, and let the discussions that upset you just go past you.

Look forward to hearing from you.

Thanks,
Amir"


So the man comes back and chooses to send me those nastygrams in PM.

Both of you sit here with no sanction and reckless freedom to take shots at this site founder. So please don't complain about state of WBF. State of WBF is allowing you to do this. Pretty sure no other forum does.

 

[Robh3606]

FWIW If you have an issue with PM's why not just handle them as PM's and only share them with fellow moderators and decide how you are going to handle it as a group. Posting PM's without the other persons consent is kind of dicey. PM implies that it is after all a private message and people will say what they have on their mind without restraint. If you want honest input from your members you had better respect their privacy.

Rob

 

[rbbert]

Well, in any forum I know, if you curse the forum founder in PM, you wouldn't last long enough to know what the TOS is.

Perhaps we have a different understanding of the word "curse". Can you point me to where I "cursed" you?

BTW, this endless posting and reposting of really non-germain information is a very tiresome behavior; I suspect there are threads where a large percentage of the post "inches" come from one particular member/owner.

 

[amirm]

How about the biggest one?

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/pages/forum-policies/

What part of it? This?

"Private Conversations

This is our private messaging system, utilizing a threaded discussion allowing members to communicate privately. Please use the system with good judgement--just because it is private does not mean our content guidelines do not apply. Do not attack, harass or abuse others, and do not send unsolicited messages to sell or purchase products (spam)."

I see nothing in there about requirement you mentioned: "I'd have to check to be sure, but I think posting a PM without both people's permission is also a violation of the TOS (not that I care in this case); it is in most forums."

Where does it talk about such a requirement?

Their terms clearly stipulate that you cannot "attack" a member and that is what you did in your PMs to me. Not once but three times.

 

[Blizzard]

Seems to me the root of the issue is audio format preference. I've been studying things closely and if anyone is to do any research on the matter, the only guys who have a problem with Amir are the guys who are in love with certain types of audio format's, that are more popular among a certain sector. Either that, or they are simply trying to fit into an self proclaimed "elitist" subculture on the forum. Everything else that's going on is secondary, and wouldn't even be an issue if the latter wasn't a issue in the first place.

It's so saddening to see such intolerance in society today. Did we not learn any lessons from what occurred in Germany back in 1937-1945?

 

[Andre Marc]

Perhaps we have a different understanding of the word "curse". Can you point me to where I "cursed" you?

BTW, this endless posting and reposting of really non-germain information is a very tiresome behavior; I suspect there are threads where a large percentage of the post "inches" come from one particular member/owner.

I saw nothing untoward or insulting in your PM. As a matter of fact you are smelling like a rose IMO.

You are caught in the usual self important vortex, black hole grind down often used as a strategy by several posters. There is no end game.
You are supposed go around n round into an endless Gordian Knot. Others before you have, and more will again..or maybe not..knot?

 

[rbbert]

Where does it talk about such a requirement?

"Personal communications between yourself and any forum member, person outside the forum, or organization, without their express written permission."

 

[rbbert]

Seems to me the root of the issue is audio format preference. I've been studying things closely and if anyone is to do any research on the matter, the only guys who have a problem with Amir are the guys who are in love with certain types of audio format's, that are more popular among a certain sector. Either that, or they are simply trying to fit into an self proclaimed "elitist" subculture on the forum. Everything else that's going on is secondary, and wouldn't even be an issue if the latter wasn't a issue in the first place.

It's so saddening to see such intolerance in society today. Did we not learn any lessons from what occurred in Germany back in 1937-1945?

Have you looked at my signature, or my system?? (obviously not)

Oops, I see that my signature no longer includes my audio system; I'm not sure how/why that happened

 

[Blizzard]

TOLERANCE!

When the dawn of Intelligence shall have spread its wings over the eastern horizon of progress, and Ignorance and Superstition shall have left their last footprints on the sands of Time, it will be recorded in the book of man’s crimes and mistakes that his most grievous sin was that of Intolerance!
The bitterest Intolerance grows out of racial and religious differences of opinion, as the result of early childhood training. How long, O Master of Human Destinies, until we poor mortals will understand the folly of trying to destroy one another because of dogmas and creeds and other superficial matters over which we do not agree?
Our allotted time on this earth is but a fleeting moment, at most!
Like a candle, we are lighted, shine for a moment and flicker out! Why can we not so live during this short earthly sojourn that when the Great Caravan called Death draws up and announces this visit about finished we will be ready to fold our tents, and, like the Arabs of the Desert, silently follow the Caravan out into the Darkness of the Unknown without fear and trembling?
I am hoping that I will find no Jews or Gentiles, Catholics or Protestants, Germans or Englishmen, Frenchmen or Russians, Blacks or Whites, Reds or Yellows, when I shall have crossed the Bar to the Other Side.
I am hoping I will find there only human Souls, Brothers and Sisters all, unmarked by race, creed or color, far I shall want to be done with Intolerance so I may lie down and rest an æon or two, undisturbed by the strife, ignorance, superstition and petty misunderstandings which mark with chaos and grief this earthly existence.

IF a man has built a sound character it makes but little difference what people say about him, because he will win in the end.
- Napoleon Hill, Sr.

 

[spazmatron]

Thanks for that Mike, unfortunately the human condition prevents all this ' sense' from being the norm. It's really not that clever to write this sort of thing as its just common sense and all it needs is a minimal amount of observation.

The theory of our best selfs can be written but it's our nature that gets in the way not despite our selfs but because of our selfs.

I am afraid self help manuals really are a dangerous thing.

I wrote just about all you posted there when I was 12 years old.

Life's so simple.... When your 12.

 

[rbbert]

I think there must be some instructional manuals on how to win arguments by using the largest amount of posting.

 

[Blizzard]

Thanks for that Mike, unfortunately the human condition prevents all this ' sense' from being the norm. It's really not that clever to write this sort of thing as its just common sense and all it needs is a minimal amount of observation.

The theory of our best selfs can be written but it's our nature that gets in the way not despite our selfs but because of our selfs.

I am afraid self help manuals really are a dangerous thing.

I wrote just about all you posted there when I was 12 years old.

Life's so simple.... When your 12.

It's just a condensed chapter from the finest book ever written. I didn't write it

 

[spazmatron]

It's just a condensed chapter from the finest book ever written. I didn't write it

I would of preferred you wrote it as a cynical way of making money than have you read it and tell me it's the greatest book ever written.

Mike some times I worry.. Not about you but for you.

Oh congrats as you have beaten northstars record for longest post.

You also set the record for debatable merrit of content and most life stolen from reader....

Well done!

 

[Blizzard]

I would of preferred you wrote it as a cynical way of making money than have you read it and tell me it's the greatest book ever written.

Mike some times I worry.. Not about you but for you.

Well it helps when you read the rest of it as well I guess. But it is a 90 year old book, so the writing style is a bit dated.

 

[Andre Marc]

I think there must be some instructional manuals on how to win arguments by using the largest amount of posting.

The secret of success and the path to happiness..don't suffer fools.

 

[spazmatron]

Well it helps when you read the rest of it as well I guess. But it is a 90 year old book, so the writing style is a bit dated.

Umm... You missed the point

On the upside all the antagonist have fallen into a coma after getting one tenth the way through your post so I guess that solves that problem!

So you done well but not for the reason you thought

 

[Blizzard]

Umm... You missed the point

On the upside all the antagonist have fallen into a coma after getting one tenth the way through your post so I guess that solves that problem!

So you done well but not for the reason you thought

It will be here for many years for folks who desire to read it over and over again. You can read it 100 times, and each time you read it, you will learn something new. Your opinion of it will change with each time it's read, and after about 30-40 times, you'll realize that you would have changed your knee-jerk initial response to it, had you been at the state of mind you will be at that point right now.