Todd's AG Trio G3 System -- it's about time

[sbnx]

Are horn speakers in general difficult to set up? Is the sweet spot is also very narrow?

The Trio has been easier to dual in compared to my former box speakers. The only “hard” part is getting the space horn integrated. And even that hasnt proved overly challenging. (Well, except the fact that they weigh a ton.)

 

[Kozak170]

(Well, except the fact that they weigh a ton.)

A ton for a pair of dual space horns! Does it mean that each module weighs 500kg!? The previous generation bass horns weighed (96 kg / 212 lbs) per module. I did not find any information about the weight of the new space horns, even in the brochure, but considering that the new space horns are more compact than before, this amount of weight seems very strange!

 

[sbnx]

Sorry about that. Please don't take the word "ton" as literal. It just means they are very heavy and hard to move around. I can lift one edge but it takes about all I have to be able to do so. (I go to the gym 4X per week). As you pointed out they don't publish the weight. I would guess the weight of a single dual spacehorn is between 200 and 300 lbs as I can only lift one edge.

 

[Kozak170]

Thank you for putting my mind at ease because I was scared for a moment! and thought that each of their space horns weighs at least as much as two pairs of my Wilson Sasha II speakers, which will probably be upgraded to trios in the future. BTW, my ear also is right at 11' from Sasha's tweeter, but I doubt that I will be able to sit as close to trios as you in the future.

 

[andromedaaudio]

If I look back at the progression of speakers that I have owned over the past 30 years they have become increasingly lifelike and dynamic in their portrayal of music. I have been looking for a presentation with a musical connection that my former speakers (Vivid Spirits and others) were not able to consistently deliver. So, I started on a journey to find what element(s) I was missing in the system and what components would be needed to deliver on my expectation. To make a long story shorter what was missing was timing and micro-dynamics.

I set out to find a speaker that would satisfy my lust for that emotional connection to music that was so hit or miss with previous systems. I had very few speakers on my list of candidates and interestingly the Avantgarde Trio G3 wasn’t originally on the list. I have never owned or seriously considered a horn speaker before because I had never heard a horn system setup in such a way that there weren’t compromises. But as fate would have it, about the time I was getting serious about a purchase the Tio G3 showed up on the scene. I listened at AXPONA 2022 and was not all that impressed with the sound. Sure the speaker looked cool but I was not convinced at that point. Knowing that one should never make strong judgements based on show conditions I contacted a few people to discuss what they thought was so great about the Trios. They said I really needed to hear them in a better location and that the Trio G3 is really a fantastic, world class speaker when setup properly. So, I contacted American Sound of Canada and arranged a visit to her place in August 2022. (I wrote about this visit in another thread.) The speakers sounded much better at her place but still not displaying the greatness I was expecting. What was obvious about the setup at American Sound is that the speakers were not optimized as they were not even on the spikes. But even with them not being very precisely setup they did not sound shouty or overly aggressive. I thought this was encouraging. Again after speaking with some industry experts I decided to take a leap of faith and purchase a pair of the Avantgarde Trio G3’s with the iTron amplifiers and a pair of Dual Spacehorns.

Other system elements are being put into place as well. I am looking for components with as little time smear as possible and are “quiet”. The component has not only the leading edge of the transient but also have lots of decay. With 109dB efficient speakers noise is a huge enemy of achieving realistic music. I spent a good amount of effort trying to understand the impact of the preamp and cables on timing. I purchased and L1/X1 to experiment with as well as playing with a few different cable lines. I will just say that not all preamps and cables are created equal when it comes to timing. I have ended up with an L10 for the preamp. I should get my new cables this week – Nordost Odin2. The digital also needs some work. (Sorry, no analog)

The speakers arrived in late January but there was an unfortunate shipping mishap and I didn’t get the full set of speakers in my room until mid-March. I have spent a good amount of time experimenting with placement and getting to know how the speaker responds to different adjustments. There is really no point in getting everything fully positioned until I get all of the front end settled, installed and broken in.

I am going to eventually post some videos I have done on install and setup of the Trios, but here are a few notes of interest. First, as Avantgarde points out in the manual you need to have your ear on the same equatorial plane as the tweeter. The tweeter sits at 43” off the floor and typical ear height is 36”-37”. In my system, the tweeter is right at 11’ from my ear so to achieve the proper ear to tweeter relationship requires a LOT of rake angle. I am currently at 3.16 degrees of forward rake. This can not be achieved with the provided spikes without putting the rear spike on some kind of thick foot. I had custom spikes make for the speaker that are from grade 5 Titanium and are M12X0.75. I had two spikes made that were extra long to accommodate the extra length needed to get the high rake angle. Problem solved. The second thing relates to what makes the Trio a truly viable speaker in my book. That is the fact that the tweeter distance can be adjusted to maintain driver time alignment as the toe-in is adjusted. I have found that the sound I get is very sensitive to the tweeter adjustment. It is pretty obvious when I have forgotten to adjust this after a small toe-in or azimuth change. The sound can get aggressive and shouty. But when I make a very small tweeter adjust everything gets right back in balance. The third major element is the spacehorn. These things weigh a ton so make sure you have plenty of help when it comes to moving them. I have positioned them on their side and on the outside of the main horns. These proved to not be that difficult to integrate to sound good. The bass is extremely fast and articulate -- no bloat, no overhang. After some adjustment of toe-in and rake they are coherent with the main horns. Of course it has built in DSP that can be used to adjust the crossover point and any EQ that someone might want. It is easy to use and adjustments can be made on the fly while listening.

The Sound so far has well exceeded my expectations and is delivering all the goods. Even with “cheap” cables and no tweaks it is crazy good. Dynamics are off the chart. Loads of low level detail and expressiveness in the music. There is none of this “cupped hands” or shoutyness or anything else I formerly associated with the “horn” sound. When I first moved them into the room I didn’t spend much time with positioning. Really just got them good enough to have a center image so I could begin the run-in process. They honestly sounded really good just like that and I could see how many might just love that sound and call it a day. It was a very “round” sound that you could just bask in its glow. It was still extremely expressive but it lacked in clarity, dynamics and of course the timing was pretty smeared. Once I got the left speaker dialed in with the current “cheap” cables etc, it is pretty much a WOW type experience. One example might be Paganini’s violin concerto No.2 from the album Paganini: Diabolus in Musica. There is no ear piercing going on with this violin. It is just articulate and extended with all of the expressiveness of a musician.

I know there are some out there that have a distaste for horns. I can understand your point as I would not say that I hated them in the past but it seemed there were some compromises I wasn’t really willing to trade this for that. I do honestly believe that a lot of this in any horn system is related to setup. But what Avantgarde has done with the Trio G3 is give me a zero trade off situation. I get all of the greatness of horns – high efficiency, dynamics, low level detail, musical expressiveness… – with none of the bad stuff I heard in the past – shouty, cupped, piercing, etc. The level of setup control is outstanding. Adjustable tweeter position to maintain time alignment, iTron current amp that allows control over spectral balance, adjustable gain to accommodate the preamp, DSP in the Spacehorn. If you have hated horns in the past you might want to give this new generation of Avantgarde’s a listen.

As the setup comes along I will post more and also post some videos of my comments during the setup process. I added the picture below because as the saying goes “It didn’t happen if there isn’t a picture”. As a note, I left the blue foam on while I was playing with the major positioning. The speakers aren’t in the front of the room any longer. I have pulled them back out to the middle.

Finally getting there.

looks great , love the ceiling

 

[Germanboxers]

Thank you for putting my mind at ease because I was scared for a moment! and thought that each of their space horns weighs at least as much as two pairs of my Wilson Sasha II speakers, which will probably be upgraded to trios in the future. BTW, my ear also is right at 11' from Sasha's tweeter, but I doubt that I will be able to sit as close to trios as you in the future.

The weight of the Trio G3 with iTron and passive crossover is 140kg. The weight of each twin spacehorn is 145kg.

 

[sbnx]

The weight of the Trio G3 with iTron and passive crossover is 140kg. The weight of each twin spacehorn is 145kg.

Thanks. I was close. 145kg=320lbs. I knew these things were super heavy as it was taking all I can muster to lift them.

 

[Germanboxers]

Thanks. I was close. 145kg=320lbs. I knew these things were super heavy as it was taking all I can muster to lift them.

The timing was perfect as Angie just sent these details since the speakers ship from Germany today. Have you had opportunities to listen more critically or are you waiting for cables and Pre before further tuning?

 

[sbnx]

I am waiting on my cables before I continue as cables have a very profound effect on the sound. I am hoping they will be delivered this week. Seems like you are pretty close to getting your pair delivered. maybe a week away. Very exciting for you. Soon you will be able to hear for yourself all the greatness and majesty.

 

[microstrip]

Nice to read your report on the new G3 in your room - congratulations. Can you address how critical / wide is the listening sweat spot ?

 

[spiritofmusic]

Todd, the iTron system is purely onboard power amps? One still needs a seperate preamp?

 

[sbnx]

Yes, a seperate preamp is needed. The iTron is “just” a power amp.

 

[sbnx]

Several people have asked about the size of the sweet spot. I don't know exactly as I have not turned and integrated the right speaker yet. But every speaker i have had has a sweet spot that is one seat wide. The person who would sit to my left will hear mostly the left speaker and the person sitting to my right will hear mostly the right speaker. Each person needs to decide what they want. Do they want a everyone in the room to have listenable music or do they want for their experience to be the best it can be. I personally aim to maximize the sound experience in the main listening chair.

If someone want a "party" system then go ahead and push the speakers back close to the wall and point them straight ahead. The speakers will then spray sound all around the room. What you would be listening too is mostly the room. I have no idea why anyone would spend money on a state of the art speaker system to do this but different people have different priorities.

 

[sbnx]

Excellent work, Todd. If Roy Gregory's words on the iTron amping are reliable, you've snagged yourself something very special.

@spritofmusic, I should mention that most of the faith in the leap of faith that I took buying these came from reading Roy's reviews (Several times). He wrote 3 articles covering the various technology and configurations of the Trio which was enough information in there combined with my auditions for me to be fairly confident that this was going to be "it". Before the Trio came out the leading speaker on my list was the Goebel Divin Noblesse which interesting he did a write up of that one also. He definitely doesn't have a word count limit. That guy uses a lot of words describing stuff. Sometimes, when I am just casually browsing the articles I am like "just get on with it". But when you are seriously interested in something and considering a purchase all those words start to matter. And so far I would say that all of those descriptive words that I was pouring over turned out to be just as he said.

 

[adyc]

Does the passive crossover come as installed even though you bought itron version?

 

[sbnx]

Does the passive crossover come as installed even though you bought itron version?

Everything is an option. One can buy with just the passive crossover, just iTron or both. There is also a remote switch that allows switching between the two on the fly. I do not have the passive xover as i dont have plans to use any other amp. But I could purchase it and install in about an hour if the need arises. I think the passive crossover is in the $4-5k range.

 

[nirodha]

@spritofmusic, I should mention that most of the faith in the leap of faith that I took buying these came from reading Roy's reviews (Several times). He wrote 3 articles covering the various technology and configurations of the Trio which was enough information in there combined with my auditions for me to be fairly confident that this was going to be "it". Before the Trio came out the leading speaker on my list was the Goebel Divin Noblesse which interesting he did a write up of that one also. He definitely doesn't have a word count limit. That guy uses a lot of words describing stuff. Sometimes, when I am just casually browsing the articles I am like "just get on with it". But when you are seriously interested in something and considering a purchase all those words start to matter. And so far I would say that all of those descriptive words that I was pouring over turned out to be just as he said.

Totally agree! Roy’s ”wordthy” enthusiasm is infectious. Almost pushed me towards Avantgarde and justly so. It is very rare that something unique like iTron hits the market.

 

[nirodha]

Everything is an option. One can buy with just the passive crossover, just iTron or both. There is also a remote switch that allows switching between the two on the fly. I do not have the passive xover as i dont have plans to use any other amp. But I could purchase it and install in about an hour if the need arises. I think the passive crossover is in the $4-5k range.

The switch is more for dealers. Once you compared the passive / active versions, it is a no-brainer.

 

[stirlingtrayle]

I am very happy for you, Todd. You have such a considered passion for your pursuit. I know purchasing the iTron Trio's was a well-considered and researched decision. Despite Roy's consistency of message, taking the time to travel multiple times to experience and confirm for yourself how they perform is really smart. I look forward to hearing more about how this journey progresses! Well done!

 

[Kozak170]

Thanks to Todd for answering all the questions accurately and clearly.

Now I would like to know how you deal with the issues of adjusting the rake angel in toe-in mode? which are more critical with this new G3 Trios since they're three legs speakers, and as Roy said when you Drop the front of the speaker to tilt it forward slightly and it also tilts outwards, altering both azimuth and toe-in to a surprising degree.
And you have to adjust middle spike to bring the toe-in back to its proper setting and correct the deviated azimuth, and because of these issues, it takes more time to reach ideal conditions.
But this is not that critical with more conventional speakers like Duo/Uno G3 series with four feet/spikes since four-spike arrangement effectively isolates each parameter so that they can be adjusted independently or at least, with minimum mutual interference.