Todd's AG Trio G3 System -- it's about time

[caesar]

Another thought on setup: just pinged some guys in my social network, and apparently there is a guy in the Toronto area, who is a former Avantgarde dealer or distributor, who can probably help . The current distributor sometimes works with him.

yet it seems like you got it down 95 percent, but being new to Avantgarde and dealing with complexity of the subs, it may be worthwhile seeking his services, if you’re paranoid. but regardless, looks like you’re nearly there. Enjoy!!!!

 

[LL21]

As Todd already mentioned, one can purchase the Trio G3 with a passive crossover, the active iTron version or both. I purchased both and included the switch that allows an instantaneous switch from passive to active.

The iTron electronics makes sense to me on an engineering level applied to a speaker system like the Trio G3; however, I have what I consider an "end game" amplifier in the Thomas Mayer 300B with silver wound transformers on FineMet cores....

...Look forward to sharing my thoughts after they are set up and settled in. Also really looking forward to Todd sharing his journey of fanatical setup with the G3's...I'm sure I can learn a great deal from his experiences.

Also look forward to reading about your observations between the 2. Just for fun, a random guess:

- Supreme coherence with iTron where the sound 'signature' was clearly designed as one, most notably in dynamics & control of the horns
- even more 'magic' in the music making itself with your legendary 300B Thomas Mayer even if [perhaps] the overall sound spectrum is less cohesive than an amp designed expressly for the speakers

I have heard the latest Trio with dual horns, driven by Emm Labs MTRX ref monos. You have one seriously impressive speaker system!

 

[microstrip]

As Todd already mentioned, one can purchase the Trio G3 with a passive crossover, the active iTron version or both. I purchased both and included the switch that allows an instantaneous switch from passive to active.

The iTron electronics makes sense to me on an engineering level applied to a speaker system like the Trio G3; however, I have what I consider an "end game" amplifier in the Thomas Mayer 300B with silver wound transformers on FineMet cores.

I struggled with what to order on my G3. I know the TM amp will be exemplary as I already use it on my Duo Mezzo XD's. If I only bought the iTron version I would be taking a leap of faith that it would be clearly better than the TM amp. If I bought the passive version only, I'd always be wondering if the innovation of iTron, really only applicable and integrated with a speakers such as the Trio G3, was truly groundbreaking.

My decision on which way to go was set when I realized I wouldn't be able to travel to Toronto to hear the G3 before purchasing. As I dug out my passport a week before my planned drive to Toronto I realized that it had expired. I wasn't willing to wait 12+ weeks to get it renewed before making the decision so I took a leap of faith and made the purchase in April.

Adding the passive crossover costs ~$5k, but considering the overall price of the speaker with a pair of twin spacehorns, for my situation, it was the optimum choice for peace of mind.

Look forward to sharing my thoughts after they are set up and settled in. Also really looking forward to Todd sharing his journey of fanatical setup with the G3's...I'm sure I can learn a great deal from his experiences.

Can we get a passive Trio G3 without passive crossover? Just the horn units .

 

[Germanboxers]

Can we get a passive Trio G3 without passive crossover? Just the horn units .

I suppose so, since they quote a price for the Trios alone and quote both the iTron and passive crossover ala carte. I also suspect your dealer/distributor and eventually Avantgarde would try to convince you otherwise. Are you asking because you can see a place for an external active or passive crossover for the Trios?

 

[microstrip]

I suppose so, since they quote a price for the Trios alone and quote both the iTron and passive crossover ala carte. I also suspect your dealer/distributor and eventually Avantgarde would try to convince you otherwise. Are you asking because you can see a place for an external active or passive crossover for the Trios?

No, just thinking it seems a nice system to use six low power SET amplifiers driven by an active crossover.
I considered such system about thirteen years ago after reading about Paul Stubblebine system in the Tapeproject forum, built using Bottlehead SET electronics and an active crossover around some old Magico speakers.

Our host Steve listened to such system and posted the more enthusiastic and persuasive narrative I have ever read in an audio forum about it!

 

[spiritofmusic]

Fwiw, I heard a fantastic horns demo nearly a decade ago, Cessaro Liszts on 15W Class A solid state Bakoon amps. Tbh other than stellar horns of Audiophile Bills (on Mayer SETs), this audition was the best one of horns, over many tubes based demos.
The conclusion I'm drawing is that if the synergy is right, there is no detriment to using SS on horns, Todd current evidence of this w his iTron G3 Trios.

 

[Germanboxers]

No, just thinking it seems a nice system to use six low power SET amplifiers driven by an active crossover.
I considered such system about thirteen years ago after reading about Paul Stubblebine system in the Tapeproject forum, built using Bottlehead SET electronics and an active crossover around some old Magico speakers.

Our host Steve listened to such system and posted the more enthusiastic and persuasive narrative I have ever read in an audio forum about it!

Interesting…far more ambitious than I’d be willing to undertake, but interesting nevertheless.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

No, just thinking it seems a nice system to use six low power SET amplifiers driven by an active crossover.
I considered such system about thirteen years ago after reading about Paul Stubblebine system in the Tapeproject forum, built using Bottlehead SET electronics and an active crossover around some old Magico speakers.

Our host Steve listened to such system and posted the more enthusiastic and persuasive narrative I have ever read in an audio forum about it!

that system was actually a creation of Dan Schmale (Doc Bottlehead) who lives in Poulsbo near me. maybe there are two such systems, or maybe the one i heard was Paul's.

Dan is a partner with Paul Subblebine on the Tape Project. i've heard that system a few times at Dan's home, and it was at a few shows. it did lots of things very well. was special sounding. i would say what i heard was not an entirely finished project. but this was back around 2010.

 

[KeithR]

Good to know, Todd. BTW…I applaud your patience and fanatical attention to setup. I know I won’t be able to delay the reward of listening for very long as I get a first go “good enough” setup. I probably won’t really dial mine until after I’ve put a great many hours listening.

Congrats on the huge upgrade, Jordan. It’s been fun watching your journey since Zu. I took a liking to Cessaro horns recently, and have wondered how that kind of switch would suit me.

 

[sbnx]

All, here is a video of me trying to explain adjusting rake and azimuth for the Trio. I am certainly no youtube star so forgive the "raw-ness" of the video.

 

[sbnx]

What is the effect of doubling and tripling SpaceHorns?

I suspect that adding more spacehorns would add a sense of ease and effortlessness ot the presentation. I know that in my room which is 22X28X12 that two pair of 12" woofers provides sufficient bass. I curretnly have the spacehorn volume at -5 and it is already 3 dB louder than the main trio. I have plenty of headroom there. Adding additional spacehorns may also allow one to DSP below 35Hz and extend the bass depth. I personally would prefer to spend those dollars buying a pair of PureLow subs and get the ultimate in lo end extension. My current plan is to use the WIlson ActivX crossover with a pair of amps and integrate my pair of WB Torus subs from 35Hz on down. I will see how that goes. But that won't happen until the main horns and spacehorns are fully set.

I would like to add that in my demo at Angie's place Jerome had a pair of singles stacked on a pair of duals. He A/B's this for me several times. I very much preferred thesound with only the pair of dual spacehorns playing. I don't know if it was simply integration or what but I the second set of woofer just didn't work in that setup.

 

[sbnx]

For such a high price, Avantgarde should send someone to help the new owner for setup

The dealer offered and I declined. All a dealer is going to do is get them unboxed, into the room and get them into a rough position. There is no way they have the time to really dial in this speaker system in my room. (I find that even Wilson setups are hit or miss with dealers. And they are trained on how to do it.) Additionally, I knew there were other components that were going to be put into place that would necessitate some speaker adjustmets.

 

[caesar]

....

I struggled with what to order on my G3. I know the TM amp will be exemplary as I already use it on my Duo Mezzo XD's. If I only bought the iTron version I would be taking a leap of faith that it would be clearly better than the TM amp. If I bought the passive version only, I'd always be wondering if the innovation of iTron, really only applicable and integrated with a speakers such as the Trio G3, was truly groundbreaking.

...

Hi Germanboxers,
Other than Thomas Mayer, what other tube amps did you hear or try on Avantgarde?

 

[caesar]

And with a DAC such as the MSB which has an outstanding low impedance line stage with good drive, DAC direct to Trio G3 is a tantallizing proposition…assuming, of course, that iTron is an improvement over a top end amplifier driving the passive crossover.

When I heard the Trios at Axpona, the distributor was using dcs vivaldi with a vac reference preamp (tubed). She also is the distributor and / or dealer of wadax in canada and former distributor of wadax in usa. For whatever reason, she chose dcs. But my hunch is that anything quiet would work. The rest is personal preference.

 

[Germanboxers]

Hi Germanboxers,
Other than Thomas Mayer, what other tube amps did you hear or try on Avantgarde?

On the Avantgarde Duo Mezzo XD’s? Thomas Mayer 10Y drives 300B with silver wound transformers on Finemet cores, Thomas Mayer 45 drives 45, Audion Black Shadows 845 SET, Yamamoto 45 SET, and Valvet 50w/ch Class A amp.

 

[the sound of Tao]

I suppose so, since they quote a price for the Trios alone and quote both the iTron and passive crossover ala carte. I also suspect your dealer/distributor and eventually Avantgarde would try to convince you otherwise. Are you asking because you can see a place for an external active or passive crossover for the Trios?

That’s a very interesting pathway for sure, would exploring a bespoke built passive crossover be a viable option for these… you could then add in either active or passive Avantgarde crossovers if you wanted to sell them later.

PS if anyone happened to have a spare set of Lamm ML3s that’d be a very interesting match up I’d have thought

 

[Germanboxers]

Congrats on the huge upgrade, Jordan. It’s been fun watching your journey since Zu. I took a liking to Cessaro horns recently, and have wondered how that kind of switch would suit me.

Thanks, Keith. Horns reach me in a way that the many conventional speakers just couldn’t. Zu was the first step down the higher sensitivity path so I do have a fondness for them…actually still have the Definitions in our great room. Look forward to hearing your impressions of the Cessaro horns. I’ve never heard them before.

 

[caesar]

On the Avantgarde Duo Mezzo XD’s? Thomas Mayer 10Y drives 300B with silver wound transformers on Finemet cores, Thomas Mayer 45 drives 45, Audion Black Shadows 845 SET, Yamamoto 45 SET, and Valvet 50w/ch Class A amp.

Thanks. I take it that Thomas Mayer blew everything away by a country mile, or were there any trade-offs for some sonic attributes?

 

[caesar]

The dealer offered and I declined. All a dealer is going to do is get them unboxed, into the room and get them into a rough position. There is no way they have the time to really dial in this speaker system in my room. (I find that even Wilson setups are hit or miss with dealers. And they are trained on how to do it.) Additionally, I knew there were other components that were going to be put into place that would necessitate some speaker adjustmets.

Hi Sbnx,
That's a good point, but you strike me as being very, very experienced - likely than most of the dealers. My hunch is that 90 percent plus people would take them on it.

What kind of room treatments do you have and did you end up tweaking any?

 

[Germanboxers]

Thanks. I take it that Thomas Mayer blew everything away by a country mile, or were there any trade-offs for some sonic attributes?

Yes…the Mayer amps were superior in every way.