Todd's AG Trio G3 System -- it's about time

[marslo]

I'm sure Todd is much more qualified to answer this question but I'll take a quick shot: the spacehorns might not "disappear" as a sound source if placed in all four corners.

Typically, when such an approach is attempted the subs are limited to low frequencies where sound is omni-directional, perhaps 50Hz or even lower, the frequency range where sound is more felt than heard. The spacehorns, however, need to integrate with the Trios' lower midrange horn in the 100Hz range where I suspect there is still some directionality. Probably wouldn't be a good effect to *hear* a sound source coming from behind you.

Not an expert by any means so hopefully more knowledgeable members will chime in.

My experience with 4 REL subs and Trio 26 LE ( much heavier and thus less resonant that the standard XD version ) is that the best place for the subs was the inner space - not outside - and just behind the big horn. The integration is not an easy task, I started with 2 subs behind the speakers and in the corners as REL recommends, but the best soundstage was with the speakers moved outwoard , just to make room for 4 REL Carbon Special.

As you point out there is probably some directionality with 60 -120 Hz range and the position of subs is more important for this range than for deep bass. My crossover point between the subs and the big horn is around 120 Hz. The tuning took almost 2 years, I was not in hurry , I don't use any measurement apart form some apps and cheap microphone for ipad , just on ears.

My listening position is around 3,5 m from the baseline between the speakers , forming almost equilateral triangle with the speakers. As the setup is in the living room with the nice view the sound is the result of many compromises , but I like what I hear.

Btw my former speakers were also Avantgardes - first Duo Omega G2 and then Duo Mezzo XD. We payed the visit to Lautertal with my wife before making decision about Duo Mezzo XD and the presentation of Duo Mezzo was for us better than Trio G2 with 6 basshorns but rather not tuned to their best ( as we have been told the tuning of Trios with 6 basshorns was suboptimal , done just the evening before our visit )

Now I follow this thread with a lot of interest , will try to audition Trio G3 when the opportunity appears.

 

[sbnx]

Hi Sbnx,
Can you please elaborate on this? Generally speaking, bass traps in corners and at times on the front wall - if not over done / over-dampen the room, sucking the life out of the music - helps control the bass and increases transparency. Are you looking to remove the treatments this because of the benefits of the large subs? Or did you find your room was overly dead? or something else?

Caesar, bass trapping was built into my room during the design process. This is one of the things that if I had it to do over again I would not do. I think it is too inflexible and generally a bad idea. At this point that is extremely difficult to change so I live with it and work around it. However, I did purchase a lot of various acoustic panels etc to experiment with. At this point almost all of the extra stuff I purchased has been removed from the room. I still have the art panels on the side wall. I will definitely remove one of the three from each side. And I may pull the stuffing out of the other two and just leave the art.

All of my other speakers in this room had a LOT of off axis response. This caused problems that had to be addressed in some way. As you know, horn speakers are very directional so they are not spraying sound all around the room to the be reflected. Now I don't need all of the extra acoustic treatments.

 

[sbnx]

Likewise, I find your last paragraph going against conventional wisdom. Common philosophy among the room and subwoofer guys, over - simplifying, is that one should add as many subs as possible to excite the room and achieve bass wave cancellation.

Any thoughts on why, as someone would expect the opposite?

My demo at Angie's place was similar to the setup at AXPONA and Munich where they have a pair of dual spacehorns between the main Trios and they have a pair of single spacehorns stacked on top of the dual's. Jerome did have three different settings programmed into the spacehorns so I could listen to just the duals, just the singles or both. As part of the settings the bass output was level matched so the loudness of the bass was the same no matter which demo I listened to.

I don't know what it was about that setup but just the dual spacehorns sounded the best. Adding in the set of singles muddied stuff up. I believe this was likely just a setup issue and could be fixed given enough time. One note for anyone interested and doing a demo like this where the singles are stacked on the duals. The horns on the bottom (in this case the duals) have the floor for bass reinforcement and are going to sound different/better than the single spacehorn that is suspended up in the air. It would be an easy trick to fall for. If you are serious and don't have a lot of space and you want to make sure the single spacehorn will work for you make the dealer setup the system with just the single on the floor.

 

[sbnx]

Could you put four SpaceHorns in all the corners?

You can do anything but I don't think this is necessarily a good idea. The spacehorns are playing up pretty high. In my case I have the crossover at about 130Hz. Below about 95Hz the Trio drops off very rapidly. According to my calculation the slope is about 30dB/Octave.

I have experimented extensively with various subwoofer setups. (Welti, Distributed, Single, Stereo, DSP, ...) At one point I had 4 18" subwoofers in my room to try the distributed array idea. To my ears this never really worked very well and that was with a crossover point that was about 70Hz. I achieved pretty flat frequency response (+/- a couple dB). The bass was never boomy but the music never sounded right. EDM sounded great but put on a small jazz ensemble with a stand up bass and it was not so great. I sold the other two subs and just have a stereo pair at this point.

The distributed bass idea might work for some people so I am not saying you should not try it if you have the time and are willing to invest the effort. I just don't think it is necessary to achieve great sound.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Well, my subs are built into my main spkrs, so unless I get that chainsaw out...

 

[sbnx]

My experience with 4 REL subs and Trio 26 LE ( much heavier and thus less resonant that the standard XD version ) is that the best place for the subs was the inner space - not outside - and just behind the big horn. The integration is not an easy task, I started with 2 subs behind the speakers and in the corners as REL recommends, but the best soundstage was with the speakers moved outwoard , just to make room for 4 REL Carbon Special.

As you point out there is probably some directionality with 60 -120 Hz range and the position of subs is more important for this range than for deep bass. My crossover point between the subs and the big horn is around 120 Hz. The tuning took almost 2 years, I was not in hurry , I don't use any measurement apart form some apps and cheap microphone for ipad , just on ears.

My listening position is around 3,5 m from the baseline between the speakers , forming almost equilateral triangle with the speakers. As the setup is in the living room with the nice view the sound is the result of many compromises , but I like what I hear.

Btw my former speakers were also Avantgardes - first Duo Omega G2 and then Duo Mezzo XD. We payed the visit to Lautertal with my wife before making decision about Duo Mezzo XD and the presentation of Duo Mezzo was for us better than Trio G2 with 6 basshorns but rather not tuned to their best ( as we have been told the tuning of Trios with 6 basshorns was suboptimal , done just the evening before our visit )

Now I follow this thread with a lot of interest , will try to audition Trio G3 when the opportunity appears.

Hello Marslo. You have a beautiful system. I can fully understand why you chose REL. The spacehorns are huge and hard to fit in. It is interesting that the position you have the RELs is the other spot I want to try with the spacehorns. Just to the inside and a little behind the Trios. I like the idea of this spot as the spacehorn would be "shooting" right at me.

It is interesting that you bring up REL at this point as last night the idea of the REL 6-pack popped in my head. Someone had asked earlier in the thread about the benefits of 4 or 6 stacked Spacehorns. The idea I had was what if the 6 spacehorns were integrated like REL does the 6pack. That being that the lowest spacehorn goes the deepest and the crossover gets set a little higher as you go up the stack. Hmmmm. That would be a very interesting experiment. (Although very expensive experiment).

 

[sbnx]

I know not everyone is a measurement person but I thought I would post these frequency plots to show the low cutoff point for both the Trio and the Spacehorn.

The rolloff from the spacehorn is very smooth. This is going to make integarting a sub up to 35Hz fairly easy. Of course the subwoofer one chooses needs to be up to the task. It will need to be very fast with preferably no phase shifting below 35Hz. I think the Torus is going to work fine but TBD.

 

[spiritofmusic]

So Todd, if you went indeed 6-pack SpaceHorns (hell of a gym workout Instagram body look, lol), each pair, or even each one, might cross at different frequencies?
And *still* not the subterranean depth or super slam of a REL 6-pack?

 

[sbnx]

So Todd, if you went indeed 6-pack SpaceHorns (hell of a gym workout Instagram body look, lol), each pair, or even each one, might cross at different frequencies?
And *still* not the subterranean depth or super slam of a REL 6-pack?

A couple points I would like to add. With the spacehorn back into the corner there was bass down to 20Hz as it was exciting the lowest few room modes that I have below 35Hz. So if your plan it to put the spacehorns in the corner then you may not need a sub to fill in below 35Hz.

If one were to have 6 spacehorns then even with the roll off there would be sufficient output below 35Hz that the DSP could be used to adjust the bass so that there you would have bass down in the 20ish Hz range. I don't know exactly as I don't have 6 spacehorns to play with. Perhaps someday someone will have 6 and can comment on this.

 

[sbnx]

Here is a video of me descibing the process of findin a good candidate starting position for the trios and showing measurements. Again the video is unpolished and raw.

 

[Germanboxers]

Here is a video of me descibing the process of findin a good candidate starting position for the trios and showing measurements. Again the video is unpolished and raw.

Great Video, Todd! Thanks for sharing. The measurements at different spacehorn positions is very informative. Did you hold the listening position constant through those measurements or did you move the microphone forward to maintain your preferred distance to the speakers?

 

[HughP3]

Thanks for sharing. Beautiful system, wish i could have heard the trios.

 

[sbnx]

Thanks for sharing. Beautiful system, wish i could have heard the trios.

Thanks Hugh.

 

[sbnx]

Great Video, Todd! Thanks for sharing. The measurements at different spacehorn positions is very informative. Did you hold the listening position constant through those measurements or did you move the microphone forward to maintain your preferred distance to the speakers?

Just for reference the measurements I showed in the video are just a small subset of the total number I have taken.

All of the measurements I showed of the spacehorn moving backwards one panel at a time had the microphone in the same location which is where I am sitting in the video. The measurement that I showed that had the bad RT60 in the front of the room had the microphone in a position where I would sit if I moved the speakers to the front of the room. I took measurements +/- about 18" from the candidate seating position in the front. None of that fixed the lumpy bass or the 400Hz ringing in the RT60.

I am hoping that the video plus my description above illustrates why there is no way a dealer is going to get speakers really dialed in a room. And all of that is just locating the best candidate location. (This part of the process would be similar to the WIlson method of voweling in to get the taped off square where the speakers will reside somewhere within.) This does not include finding the actual spot within this square where the speakers are really going to work. That part is done by ear.

 

[Germanboxers]

Just for reference the measurements I showed in the video are just a small subset of the total number I have taken.

All of the measurements I showed of the spacehorn moving backwards one panel at a time had the microphone in the same location which is where I am sitting in the video. The measurement that I showed that had the bad RT60 in the front of the room had the microphone in a position where I would sit if I moved the speakers to the front of the room. I took measurements +/- about 18" from the candidate seating position in the front. None of that fixed the lumpy bass or the 400Hz ringing in the RT60.

I am hoping that the video plus my description above illustrates why there is no way a dealer is going to get speakers really dialed in a room. And all of that is just locating the best candidate location. (This part of the process would be similar to the WIlson method of voweling in to get the taped off square where the speakers will reside somewhere within.) This does not include finding the actual spot within this square where the speakers are really going to work. That part is done by ear.

Thanks! Very helpful. Your measuring positions were definitely implied in your video and explicit for the bad RT60, I just wanted to be sure I wasn't assuming something wrong on the measurements one panel at a time.

 

[adyc]

How does bass compared to your old speaker G1S?

 

[nirodha]

Just for reference the measurements I showed in the video are just a small subset of the total number I have taken.

All of the measurements I showed of the spacehorn moving backwards one panel at a time had the microphone in the same location which is where I am sitting in the video. The measurement that I showed that had the bad RT60 in the front of the room had the microphone in a position where I would sit if I moved the speakers to the front of the room. I took measurements +/- about 18" from the candidate seating position in the front. None of that fixed the lumpy bass or the 400Hz ringing in the RT60.

I am hoping that the video plus my description above illustrates why there is no way a dealer is going to get speakers really dialed in a room. And all of that is just locating the best candidate location. (This part of the process would be similar to the WIlson method of voweling in to get the taped off square where the speakers will reside somewhere within.) This does not include finding the actual spot within this square where the speakers are really going to work. That part is done by ear.

nice to read the last sentence because sometimes I wonder how little audiophiles trust/rely on their most valuable tool: their ears.

 

[sbnx]

How does bass compared to your old speaker G1S?

The G1 Spirit has a LOT of bass. This has to be controlled in the room. Once I got the Spirits dialed in the bass was articulate. But that speaker was very challenging to work with in my room. I also owned the G1's before the Spirits. That speaker was well balanced and by comparison easy to get to sound good.

The bass quality and texture of the horns is superior to any of my former speakers. Everything is much faster with less overhang. (The Spirits did go lower. They extended down to 20Hz in my room). The beauty of the Trio system is the adjustability it gives the user. If I want more or less bass I can simply turn the woofer volume up or down.

 

[sbnx]

Thanks! Very helpful. Your measuring positions were definitely implied in your video and explicit for the bad RT60, I just wanted to be sure I wasn't assuming something wrong on the measurements one panel at a time.

Jordan, do you have a delivery date on your pair yet?

 

[DSkip]

nice to read the last sentence because sometimes I wonder how little audiophiles trust/rely on their most valuable tool: their ears.

Most audiophiles do not know how to use their ear as a tool in the setup situation he is referencing. Most dealers don't have a clue either. A speaker setup professional *should* know how to do this by ear.

This isn't to say that audiophiles/dealers don't know great sound when they hear it - the issue is having the knowledge and toolset to use that ear as a tool to achieve great sound. Reference points are needed. Proper tools are needed. More importantly, knowing how movements impact the sound are needed. I've spent the past two years developing those skillsets and its a learning curve that takes time and the more setups you do, the better you get at it.