Todd's AG Trio G3 System -- it's about time

[Al M.]

For my personal preferences I am hearing way, way too much treble energy.

Yes, pretty atrocious. I am listening with headphones on laptop, and regular YouTube music videos do not give me that treble tilt.

If that were the actual system sound, I couldn't live with it, way too fatiguing. Unnatural, too.

 

[the sound of Tao]

I think this slices and dices the pie the wrong way. I don't think it has to do with different kinds of horn aficionados per se.

I think it has to do with audiophiles who cotton to the contemporary high-and audio sound as cultivated by the magazines, and audiophiles who don't. I think it's about this bifurcation in sonic preferences, not a bifurcation in loudspeaker preference, horns or otherwise.

I think this bifurcation in sonic preferences about contemporary high-end audio sound can be mapped to all different kinds of loudspeakers and systems, and not just to contemporary horn aficionados versus traditional horn aficionados.

I would also add that I wasn’t being negative or hierarchical or in any way or prescriptive in this and I don’t see preferences in approach’s as being competitive such that some are right and therefore others wrong because I just simply don’t.

Pure is an interesting word that Mike mentioned because it can have all sorts of connotations about being purist as being somehow better but I do align with simpler being better for me and paring back away from complexity and being reductive does fit with my approach to life but complexity can be made to work for others so it’s not a right or wrong thing either.

But I also don’t think that we can just compartmentalise our preferences and see all these sitting as separate issues… eventually we build ourselves into visions of ourselves as systems based audiophiles.

It’s the sum of all our philosophies that make it work for us and not just about just a philosophy on any one preference alone as a distinction.

Early on we separate out our preferences… but eventually I suppose we start seeing ourselves come together as a sum of preferences or a recipe of preferences and not just as a list of separate preferences… that is (for me) that I like horns as long as they have SET.

I liked magnepans with either push pull tube or solid state but then neither amp choice made me sufficiently happy.

The recipes that I think ultimately tend to work are different for each gear type and tend to be better if more aligned with the strengths of a type and not those that are full of compromises set up dominantly on the constraints of a type. This sets up the logically different subgroups and mixes of preferences for any gear type. It’s helpful to identify the patterns of what is identified through practice as those mixes of approaches that tend to work and are most adopted.

 

[the sound of Tao]

i don't personally know horns from a bale of hay. i'm just on the outside looking in.

but from reading Ked's travels and his horn viewpoints, and documentation of dozens of horn installations, i think you are way over-simplifying the horn interest landscape. the most profound aspect of horns that i see is just how much DIY activity there is with horns, including levels of dsp and personal builds. guys like Bill. it's a whole sub hobby really and there are plenty of mixtures of all the pieces.

and then commercial horns are all over the board as far as approaches. and trying to separate presentation expectations into two camps is not realistic. that somehow there are 'less pure' horn users. source as a divider also not very usable. maybe if there are 10 horn categories commercial horns with dsp and "digital-only" is one of them. i do see lifestyle packages with horn speakers and dsp/digital sources as products. but to me that is a small corner of horn activity.

The choice to go DSP is one of the defining moments in horn design in whether to stay working within the traditional limits of setting up for parameters and drivers that can be made to work together without the use of DSP or to not. It might seem simpler just to use DSP especially in DIY where you are trying to allow for all the options you can for changing out different drivers and crossover parts along the way when working in the unknown but then it may have implications that will then come back at you later.

Another critical point in any speaker design is whether to go one or two way or to open up to more a multi way approach in a speaker. Having a philosophy like keep it simple may not be the best for all but it can make it easier to narrow down your choices which is easily half the battle in a design process.

 

[Carlos269]

I personally think all videos sound bad. I would have to hear his system in person to comment on it. I also don't know how much attention he has paid to details. For example, I have no idea what footers if any he is using or why he chose them. I don't know how level he has his components. I don't know how precisely he set each speaker. etc. etc. So I can not comment on that either.

Regarding videos -- I can definitely hear differences. For example Jay at the audio lab usually compares two things. This comparison is in the same room with the same mic sitting in the same position. So if I listen with headphones I can definitely hear the difference between A and B. And I might prefer one over the other using headphones. I do not necessarily think that my preference would translate if I were to listen to A and B while sitting in the room. This is not a skill I am trying to hone.

Perhaps Ked has done this so much that he has built a mental filter on how a phone video would translate to real life experience.

See to me, none of that matters. The only thing that matters to me is the resultant sound. The resultant sound is the only thing that matters and the only thing that should be judged. A great sounding system will sound great live and on video. A system either delivers the goods or it doesn’t.

I find it interesting, all the talk about systems sounding poor on videos but I assume supposedly sounding otherwise in the room. I need to experience that one day. My many systems’ sound on video is representative of what they sound like in the room. No they don’t sound exactly alike, but the videos convey enough of the sound quality, tone and character to make a good account of the sound in the room.

I have noticed an apprehension to share system videos of these very expensive systems. You can duck and hide but the truth always remains.

 

[Ron Resnick]

You can duck and hide but the truth always remains. (emphasis added)

Here is the fundamental problem: In a subjective audio hobby there is no objective sonic "truth."

Greatest fool of all is the one who fools himself.

 

[Carlos269]

Al, (Al M.),
I’m willing to come to your house to have a listen. Are you ready for me to hear your system in person?

Here is the fundamental problem: In a subjective audio hobby there is no objective sonic "truth."

Greatest fool of all is the one who fools himself.

By “truth” I meant that everyone knows their own truth and by ducking and hiding it doesn’t change that truth. I post videos of my systems and they all sound great. I currently have a new system that to me is the best sounding ever, than any system that I have ever listened to, either live or over videos. The only fools that fool themselves are those that are afraid to withstand judgement. Call me confident, I rather you call me that than the opposite.

 

[bonzo75]

This was using iPhone 7

 

[PeterA]

Al, (Al M.),
I’m willing to come to your house to have a listen. Are you ready for me to hear your system in person?


By “truth” I meant that everyone knows their own truth and by ducking and hiding it doesn’t change that truth. I post videos of my systems and they all sound great. I currently have a new system that to me is the best sounding ever, than any system that I have ever listened to, either live or over videos. The only fools that fool themselves are those that are afraid to withstand judgement. Call me confident, I rather you call me that than the opposite.

Carlos, there are a lot of systems I would like to hear. The problem is that one must wait for an invitation. It is the prerogative of the host to invite whom he wants into his home.

 

[Ron Resnick]

This was using iPhone 7

I listened to both a couple of times on Sennheiser over-the-ear headphones, as Todd is correct that the iPhone speaker tilts everything to brightness.

I hear this version as being more natural, with greater tonal individuality and differentiation of instruments. I hear greater weight in upper bass to lower midrange. I don't hear here the persistent emphasized treble energy I feel like hear in the other one.

 

[Al M.]

Al, (Al M.),
I’m willing to come to your house to have a listen. Are you ready for me to hear your system in person?

Absolutely! It would be my pleasure, Carlos.

 

[bonzo75]

I hear this version as being more natural, with greater tonal individuality and differentiation of instruments. I hear greater weight in upper bass to lower midrange. I don't hear here the persistent emphasized treble energy I feel like hear in the other one.

Your assessment of Leif’s system is pretty good. Tang also had a great video of this on his Cessaro and iirc Aries cerat contendo had as well. None emphasised the treble balance and all had great midbass weight

 

[Carlos269]

Carlos, there are a lot of systems I would like to hear. The problem is that one must wait for an invitation. It is the prerogative of the host to invite whom he wants into his home.

Peter, I agree that it is the owners prerogative on who they invite into their home. I’m myself a pretty private person. But you missed the point of my comment. Al claims that videos are worthless and that is why he doesn’t post any videos of his system, yet he participates and comments on every posting related to videos. If he feels that he has developed something special with his systems and that videos will not do it justice then the only way to evaluate and asses his achievement is in person. If he feels free to participate in the video discussions without having any skin in the game then perhaps he should open his door for others to asses that which he’s apprehensive to share. I feel like I always have to explain everything, sometimes it is good to learn how to read between the lines.

 

[Carlos269]

Absolutely! It would be my pleasure, Carlos.

Al, great! I will reciprocate the invitation. My son lives in Brooklyn and I will coordinate with you a visit next time that I go visit my son.

 

[Al M.]

Al, great! I will reciprocate the invitation. My son lives in Brooklyn and I will coordinate with you a visit next time that I go visit my son.

Excellent! Looking forward to it.

 

[Al M.]

Al claims that videos are worthless and that is why he doesn’t post any videos of his system, yet he participates and comments on every posting related to videos.

Not quite. I haven't looked at the thread about "acoustically coupled video recordings" in days, if not weeks. I also don't comment on each video elsewhere.

 

[Rhapsody]

I lived with Trios and 4BH's for eight years. I REALLY enjoyed them. That was in 2002-2010. I guess my taste has changed as I now prefer this type of horn/tube sound. I know the Diesis are not a full horn system etc. but I love them with the 1-2 Watt 45 based Triode Lab mono amps.

 

[PeterA]

Peter, I agree that it is the owners prerogative on who they invite into their home. I’m myself a pretty private person. But you missed the point of my comment. Al claims that videos are worthless and that is why he doesn’t post any videos of his system, yet he participates and comments on every posting related to videos. If he feels that he has developed something special with his systems and that videos will not do it justice then the only way to evaluate and asses his achievement is in person. If he feels free to participate in the video discussions without having any skin in the game then perhaps he should open his door for others to asses that which he’s apprehensive to share. I feel like I always have to explain everything, sometimes it is good to learn how to read between the lines.

Oh I understood you Carlos. It’s your presumption that he should open his door to others so they can assess that which he’s apprehensive to share that I don’t agree with. I can read between the lines but depending on what is written, accurate assessment isn’t always easy.

I look forward to reading your assessment of his system. Perhaps he will invite me to join you two for dinner.

 

[Carlos269]

Carlos, we all can see the trap from a mile away:

-- get member to post video

-- criticize sound

-- recommend Carlos mastering system as solution

I’m going to attempt to respond to this post as clearly as I can:

Carlos, we all can see the trap from a mile away:

-- get member to post video

If you haven’t figured it out by now, I’m a person who enjoys challenges and likes being challenged. In asking for members with “Uber” systems to post videos of their system my goal is to listen to a members system that wows me, blows me away, impresses me, and opens a new paradigm of sound reproduction that I’m not familiar with. Sadly it is usually the contrary, I’m always disappointed and underwhelmed by what I hear. So far, to me the only competition that I have heard to challenge my systems are my other systems. Hearing a system that possesses sound to aspire to would serve as a motivation for me and it would further fuel my passion to dig deeper and go further than my own self motivation drives me to. I have traveled, and continue to, travel all over the world and I’m still waiting to hear an “Uber” system at a dealer, at private homes, at shows, that I find exceptional and aspirational. Quite the contrary, it is the modest DIY type system that often catch my attention and serve as inspiration for my dedication. My requests for members’ system videos are made with good intentions and are done in earnest.

-- criticize sound

I typically do not criticize the sound or am I critical of an underwhelming system UNLESS that system is trying to be passed of as something that it is not.

-- recommend Carlos mastering system as solution

As I have stated repeatedly, my System-Remastering concept and process is only for those that are hardcore in this hobby and want to push the limits and go as deep into the rabbit hole as possible. It really is the most powerful way to make marked and significant improvements to ones system’s sound and presentation. Having said that, my system-Remastering concept and process is not for everyone and for every system. The System-Remastering process makes high demands on both the owners’s knowledge and of the system’s capabilities to withstand the chances without damage or strain. If you put a bunch of knobs, sliders, and buttons in front of a person with little knowledge of the physics of sound acoustics, electronics, and musical reproduction it will turn into a total mess and failure really quick. In order for my system Remastering process to be effective the operator must be extremely knowledgeable and have an extremely capable system. In the hands of the uninitiated this is what my system Remastering system would look and feel like:

 

[Ron Resnick]

I’m going to attempt to respond to this post as clearly as I can:



If you haven’t figured it out by now, I’m a person who enjoys challenges and likes being challenged. In asking for members with “Uber” systems to post videos of their system my goal is to listen to a members system that wows me, blows me away, impresses me, and opens a new paradigm of sound reproduction that I’m not familiar with. Sadly it is usually the contrary, I’m always disappointed and underwhelmed by what I hear. So far, to me the only competition that I have heard to challenge my systems are my other systems. Hearing a system that possesses sound to aspire to would serve as a motivation for me and it would further fuel my passion to dig deeper and go further than my own self motivation drives me to. I have traveled, and continue to, travel all over the world and I’m still waiting to hear an “Uber” system at a dealer, at private homes, at shows, that I find exceptional and aspirational. Quite the contrary, it is the modest DIY type system that often catch my attention and serve as inspiration for my dedication. My requests for members’ system videos are made with good intentions and are done in earnest.

I typically do not criticize the sound or am I critical of an underwhelming system UNLESS that system is trying to be passed of as something that it is not.

As I have stated repeatedly, my System-Remastering concept and process is only for those that are hardcore in this hobby and want to push the limits and go as deep into the rabbit hole as possible. It really is the most powerful way to make marked and significant improvements to ones system’s sound and presentation. Having said that, my system-Remastering concept and process is not for everyone and for every system. The System-Remastering process makes high demands on both the owners’s knowledge and of the system’s capabilities to withstand the chances without damage or strain. If you put a bunch of knobs, sliders, and buttons in front of a person with little knowledge of the physics of sound acoustics, electronics, and musical reproduction it will turn into a total mess and failure really quick. In order for my system Remastering process to be effective the operator must be extremely knowledgeable and have an extremely capable system. In the hands of the uninitiated this is what my system Remastering system would look and feel like:

View attachment 120814

Thank you for explaining.

 

[treitz3]

Carlos, have we seen a video of your rig?

Tom