Todd's AG Trio G3 System -- it's about time

[andromedaaudio]

Do you really want to argue that a Thomas Mayer SET amplifier is not a simpler or a more pure amplifier than a CH?

Its the image attached and manufacturer marketing what appeals to audiophiles
It says nothing about the circuitry being better / having less distortion.
Most are hard wired simple circuitry / hand made amps , it has the appeal of being pure
Is the first simple electric motor that was ever designed better then the latest E motor designed with the latest software and Lab test facilities ( and materials) no off course not

 

[joey_v]

Spoke to Jacob.
He is very into the Trio.

 

[LL21]

Spoke to Jacob.
He is very into the Trio.

The combination of intense micro nuance and effortless room filling scale is impressive. It is an electron microscope, so he has his work cut out for him...but he is almost certainly up for that challenge and has the room. I could imagine him going to iTron if they calibrate for him to the nth degree.

 

[caesar]

Wow just woke up reading that microstrip’s favorite reviewer moved from Wilson WAMM to horns.

looks like JH is moving off the NLF curve

I believe he is a musician. He brings up that he played trumpet as a kid. So I was thoroughly shocked when he moved from magnepan to the cerebral and hifi sound of wilson. I know at least 3 very accomplished musicians, who are not audiophiles, who shake their heads at what audiophiles buy - but get grabbed by the Avantgarde sound. Good to see folks being re-awakened by realism of horns. Please keep up the good work!

 

[KeithR]

he's a reviewer, they tend to change stuff. I'm sure he will write about it and it should be interesting.

 

[Kodak805]

I did not opt to put the speakers in the front of the room as the bass was too lumpy for me and there were a few other acoustic issues related to the main trio response in the front. Instead I have the speaker pulled very far into the room (about 13'). Here is the response of the spacehorn as it stands.

View attachment 118421


The bottom curve represents the spacehorn with no DSP applied. The top curve is after I played with the high-shelf filter option. Ignore the vertical scale as the value is not calibrated. All that matters for this is the shape and the relative difference between the two curves.

A few things to note. First is the cut-off frequency of 35Hz where the output starts dropping at about 24dB/Oct. (The "wiggles" we are seeing down at 20-25Hz are an artifact of the output being so low in level.) Again, this is what to expect without any boundary reinforcement. probably not many people will pull the horns this far from the wall.

I mentioned in the video that we could use a shelf filter to pull down the output above a certain level to get the bass flat. if you get into the actual DSP of the spacehorn (not the GUI) then it does have both low and high shelf filters. You can choose the frequency you want to start the shelf, the Q and the Gain. If you are not familiar with shelf filters then google will return links with lots of info on them.

I played with the various settings and what is pictured above is about the best I could get. I set the frequency to 35Hz and the gain to -9dB. The Q is at 15 (which is pretty high). With these settings it really raised the bass output from 35 to 55Hz. (Really, it lowered everything above this) You can see the levels above about 53Hz are very well matched. In the graph I placed the cursor at 30Hz. You can see that the level at 30Hz is about the same as up higher at 70-90Hz. So we have extended the bass output flat to 30Hz. It is -3dB at about 27Hz.

So I got flat bass down to 30Hz. What is needed to do this and could it be better? The basline curve (without DSP) is with the volume on the spacehorn set at -9.0. Recall that the spacehorn has a volume setting that ranges from -12 to +12. The iTron amp also has switches that let us adjust the overall gain of the 3 horns. i have the -3 and -6 switches engages meaning that the Trio is down by 9 dB and I use the preamp volume to get the level back up. I have the Spacehorn volume set at -9 to match the trios. What I did with the shelf filter is give it a gain of -9 so I simply turned the spacehorn up to 0. If I wanted to go into positive gain on the spacehorn I could turn it up another 6 or even 9. and I could have extended the bass output further into the lower 20's. I am not sure what this would have sounded like. If I start getting worried about the hump that is being created at 35Hz I could use a PEQ to pull that down.

Now, if I was not using the iTron amp and instead using some other amplifier -- Viva or Dartzeel or whatever. Then I don't have those nifty little switches and so the spacehorn would be at about 0 to match the volume level of the trio. One could still do the shelf filter but they would not have anywhere near the same headroom as with the iTron. In order to gain this headroom one would need to add a second and/or thrid spacehorn to the mix.

Or the final option. Add another/different subwoofer to cover the range from 35Hz down to however low you want to go. I believe that just any subwoofer is not going to work here. The horn loaded bass is very fast. It is going to have to be something special to integrate at the same level of transparency and speed.

So what purpose do the Wilson Benesch Torus Infrasonic Generators serve in your system?

 

[Hear Here]

You state this " pure " as a fact Ron , regarding Viva Aurora, Lamm ML3 other Sets .

Its not , Its just an opinion that you and Ked and others propagate.

I think J heilbrunn should first try I tron as thats how they were designed by the manufacturer .
Then his darts and other solidstate , lastly he should opt for " SET coloration "

I tend to agree. SETs are often chosen to power high sensitivity speakers such as horns, but not because they are "pure". Far from it, SETs are known for their characterful and attractive "distortion" that makes listening (particularly when matched with characterful horns) such a pleasure.

There are no dead accurate SETs as far as I know and that (for lovers of their musical presentation) is what makes them so attractive. You won't find SETs in pro studios where purity and accuracy are essential. Nor horns for that matter. Vive la difference!

There is no harm in having over-powerful amps either. SETs are great with horns, but mainly because horns are not greedy for watts. Put a powerful amp in front of horns and no harm done. Often on the contrary - if carefully chosen, a powerful ss amp can often offer all the goose-bump factor that SETs can and will never struggle with the most difficult and loudest of crescendos that may scare even the best of SETs.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Interesting on how the Dartzeels compare to the itrons.

seems obvious to me. the itron is also an amazing choice for many reasons. i heard it at Axpona 22' on the G3 and at the Seattle show this past june on the AG Duo.GT. but it's not darTZeel. i think especially in direct compare to the itron, the darTZeel will give you linearity and speed that most tubes would not. it might perfectly split the difference between tubes and the itron in presentation, yet still provide tube-like liquid and grain less in contrast to the itron which the G3 would fully reveal. and ideal balance. also the dart 108 mk2 stereo might be a great choice.

the darts would also likely be more of a piece with the speed of the Spacehorn's compared to many tube choices.

if you were putting solid state on AG it would need to be a very simple circuit with zero negative feedback. dart is one of those.

Also, interesting that he is using the dcs Apex instead of Wadax, just like the Avantgarde systems presented by the North American distributor (she has both dacs)

i don't 'know', but my guess is it's more that Harley already has the Wadax. and Valin stays away from both Wadax and dCS and checks out other digital.

Wadax takes too much real estate for Fremer. he could do a review (but would not since Harley has already done it), but not a long term Fremer choice.

and Angie is only the Canadian distributor for Wadax, not USA.

 

[christoph]

Good to know and will be interesting how the 468s 475 watts power works with such high sensitivity (109db) speakers. They could easily work beautifully given the caliber of both. Just will be interesting if he chooses to rework the amplification over time given his extreme flexibility now.

Hervé Delétraz (darTZeel) drives his private Klipschorns (also well over 100dB) with his 468 monos.
Would have loved to compare against some very nice SET though

 

[LL21]

...if you were putting solid state on AG it would need to be a very simple circuit with zero negative feedback. dart is one of those.

Interesting, the very definition of the Robert Kodas...well, that does not in and of itself mean that much in the context of a real match, but long-term something for me to keep in mind.

 

[bonzo75]

Hervé Delétraz (darTZeel) drives his private Klipschorns (also well over 100dB) with his 468 monos.
Would have loved to compare against some very nice SET though

He has klipsch now? A few years back when I visited he had the Rehedko in his living room (apart from the MM3 in his audio room)

 

[christoph]

He has klipsch now? A few years back when I visited he had the Rehedko in his living room (apart from the MM3 in his audio room)

The Klipschorns were in the basement listening room.
I haven't seen any EA speakers.
But this was also a few years ago.

 

[sbnx]

Hi SBNX,
Thanks again for this incredible thread. I remember you mentioning a while back that the 3rd set of specehorns did not make things better when you were auditioning the speakers. Just to clarify, are you still aligned with that statement when used with Itrons but not when using 3rd party amps? can you please elaborate in non-technical language? many thanks!

Hello Caesar, I hope you had a great holiday weekend (if you live in the US).

I use a pair of the dual spacehorns and I have them turned vertically. These provide plenty of bass down to 35Hz in my room. Because I use the iTron amp and have turned the gain down I have plenty of headroom on the spacehorns. They are curretnly set at -9dB. (The Range is -12 to +12). Because I have the spacehorn turned vertically I can't really stack another one on top of it. The reason I have it vertical is because I have it to the outside of the Trio and I am almost out of space laterally. I think it would fit laying down but I would have to measure.

There are a couple of interesting thing about stacking multiple spacehorns in the middle. One would be that the bass would extend below 35Hz. I don't know for sure but 3 sets of dual spacehorns would likely get close to 20Hz. The second is that the tall stack of woofers would create a plane wave of bass coming at the listener. I have not experienced that but I think it would be a nice effect.

When I auditioned them back in 2022 there was a pair of dual spacehorns on the bottom and a pair of single spacehorns on the top. The bass was not super well integrated and to me it sounded better with just playing the single pair of dual spacehorns. I am not faulting Jerome as he only had about half a day to setup up the system and get reasonable sound. I am sure it sounds better now.

Not sure if you saw the recent "Thomas and Stereo" video he did where he talked about that trio setup at Angies. He seemed pretty blown away by the sound. Here is a link.

 

[sbnx]

So what purpose do the Wilson Benesch Torus Infrasonic Generators serve in your system?

I intend to integrate the Torus below 35Hz

 

[sbnx]

Regarding Jacob's setup. I know someone who went and listened to his setup. He liked it very much. He has three dual spacehorns stacked in each corner behind thet trios. The person who went told me he preferred the Dartzeel to the iTron.

It would not surprise me that he would shift from the WAMM to the Trios. The G3 series horns do something very special. As I stated in earlier posts, in the past I hear a lot of good things in horns but some things that I did not like. So it seemed like a trade off. However, AG has address all of that "bad" stuff with the G3's. Now I can get all the good stuff with horns without having to compromise.To me the iTron is just the icing on the cake. It allows one to lower the noise floor and gain flexibility in placement as the switches allow one to tailor the balance. I am sure Jacob is playing around with various amps (Tube and SS and iTron).

 

[Ron Resnick]

if you were putting solid state on AG it would need to be a very simple circuit with zero negative feedback

+1

 

[Carlos269]

Regarding Jacob's setup. I know someone who went and listened to his setup. He liked it very much. He has three dual spacehorns stacked in each corner behind thet trios. The person who went told me he preferred the Dartzeel to the iTron.

It would not surprise me that he would shift from the WAMM to the Trios. The G3 series horns do something very special. As I stated in earlier posts, in the past I hear a lot of good things in horns but some things that I did not like. So it seemed like a trade off. However, AG has address all of that "bad" stuff with the G3's. Now I can get all the good stuff with horns without having to compromise.To me the iTron is just the icing on the cake. It allows one to lower the noise floor and gain flexibility in placement as the switches allow one to tailor the balance. I am sure Jacob is playing around with various amps (Tube and SS and iTron).

Why don’t you post some videos of the system playing some music to give us a taste of what you are talking about? You have meticulously set up the system and got Sterling Trayle to assist with the final tuning, why not showcase the sound of the system.and the results that you have achieved?

 

[Al M.]

Regarding Jacob's setup. I know someone who went and listened to his setup. He liked it very much. He has three dual spacehorns stacked in each corner behind thet trios. The person who went told me he preferred the Dartzeel to the iTron.

It would not surprise me that he would shift from the WAMM to the Trios. The G3 series horns do something very special. As I stated in earlier posts, in the past I hear a lot of good things in horns but some things that I did not like. So it seemed like a trade off. However, AG has address all of that "bad" stuff with the G3's. Now I can get all the good stuff with horns without having to compromise.To me the iTron is just the icing on the cake. It allows one to lower the noise floor and gain flexibility in placement as the switches allow one to tailor the balance. I am sure Jacob is playing around with various amps (Tube and SS and iTron).

So what was the "bad" stuff with horns?

 

[sbnx]

So what was the "bad" stuff with horns?

I had mentioned that my former horn experience was limited to shows. It always seemed to sound like a PA system. I liked the dynamics but tone was always weird. In hindsight it was most likely setup induced. But…

 

[sbnx]

Why don’t you post some videos of the system playing some music to give us a taste of what you are talking about? You have meticulously set up the system and got Sterling Trayle to assist with the final tuning, why not showcase the sound of the system.and the results that you have achieved?

I will post some videos sometime. I am getting my final 4 power cords this weekend.