Todd's AG Trio G3 System -- it's about time

[Germanboxers]

A funny story -- So in the above post I said I wanted to try the Nordost Qkore and experiment with the gain settings. So, I got home from work yesterday evening all excited. I plugged in the Qkore to the iTron grounding post and turned on the iTrons to get them warming up. I went to the gym while everything was settling in and warming up. When I returned home I sat down for a good listen expecting some greatness. What happened? Well, I fired up Beethoven piano concerto 1 and boom! WTF. The sound was dead and lifeless. I know it couldn't have sounded this bad when I left it the night before -- could it??. I tried a couple other pieces and dead, dead, dead. I was thinking how can this be. It is like the Qkore has a giant straw and is sucking the life out the music. So what else to do except unplug it and see what happens. Still dead sounding. Hmmmm. did something shift? So I go back to the beginning and start the process of understanding where it is wrong. So it happens that I switch to a song that I know is phase inverted so I click the button and then I immediately see the problem. The phase was inverted on Beethoven and the others when it wasn't supposed to be. Whew. set the phase correct and Listen again and all is now good. Back to the good baseline sound. So how did the changes go?

After the initial crisis, I now started with the gain adjustment. I listened a few times to the first major piano runs in Beethoven Piano Concerto 1. I then flipped the switch to turn the iTron gain down by 3dB and adjusted the L10 up by 3dB and listened again. As I expected the piano keys were much more crisp and dynamic. But the sound is a tad strident. Maybe too much gain. To me what this does is adjust the rise time (or leading edge) of each piano strike. This definitely cleared out some space between the notes.

I then went back and connected the Qkore to the iTron ground post and listened again. Wow, Wow, Wow! This cleaned things up a great deal. It seems that what the Qkore does is clean up the trailing edge -- more decay; more silence. Interestingly it also cleaned up the lower piano register a good bit. This makes some sense as the lower notes are "bigger" and really benefit from the extra space.

The sound is still a touch strident. I am positive a few more speaker adjustments are needed but there is still more to play with. I switched from Global to local feedback on the L10. This seemed to help a lot with the stridency and overall I think I like the sound of the local feedback setting better. I need to setup a shortcut key on the remote so I can switch back and forth more quickly to get a good grip on what all this does. I could also back off the preamp gain some and I am sure that will dial back the stridency. I also have not added any grounding boxes to any of the front end equipment yet.

The new settings exposed the fact that I needed to pull the speakers in toward the center just a touch -- about 1mm or less. After this and the requisite toe-in adjust and the timing is even better. Things are starting to get there. Slowly.

Maybe I missed it, but how did you invert phase? I don't think the Trios have a phase invert? Did you do so accidently on the L10?

 

[sbnx]

Maybe I missed it, but how did you invert phase? I don't think the Trios have a phase invert? Did you do so accidently on the L10?

I used the MSB DAC Remote to invert phase. I could also use the L10 remote but I like the MSB. Try it on some albums and see what you think. For example almost all Dire Straits albums are inverted phase.

 

[sbnx]

I made a quick video last night comparing the sound with Qkore and Gain adjust to the sound without these. The video is a little rough as I was dog tired last night. If you want to skip all of my crappy commentary then you can toggle between 1:44 and 4:08 and that will get you a direct comparison of the two. As the video mentions the music choice is Beethoven's 1st Piano Concerto. I thought the iphone recording would pick up a larger difference between the two but even when I listen on headphones (Cheap ones) it is hard to hear much difference and certainly not the magnitude of what is in the room. Maybe you guys can hear more in the recording. Either way the video does give you a good sense of what piano is sounding like on the Trios == Very good.

Enjoy.

 

[sbnx]

Hi Sbnx,

Wow, that sensitive, huh? And I imagine you tried a variety of tweeter positions on yours...

makes one wonder how avantgarde determined the position of the tweeter in previous models

That seemed to be one of the big issues in the previous model Tio. The setup would always involve a decision or compromise on which sound one wanted to live with.

 

[sbnx]

You are very humble.... How many of these "professional" guys like this do you think exist in the hobby? Most of the experienced guys setup by ear, to their taste.

Not many. And definitely not many that are willing to help other people setup their systems. (Even for a fee). If you want to experience this then give Stirling Trayle a call and have him setup your system.

 

[adyc]

Not many. And definitely not many that are willing to help other people setup their systems. (Even for a fee). If you want to experience this then give Stirling Trayle a call and have him setup your system.

Is Stirling an expert in setting up Trio?

 

[adyc]

I made a quick video last night comparing the sound with Qkore and Gain adjust to the sound without these. The video is a little rough as I was dog tired last night. If you want to skip all of my crappy commentary then you can toggle between 1:44 and 4:08 and that will get you a direct comparison of the two. As the video mentions the music choice is Beethoven's 1st Piano Concerto. I thought the iphone recording would pick up a larger difference between the two but even when I listen on headphones (Cheap ones) it is hard to hear much difference and certainly not the magnitude of what is in the room. Maybe you guys can hear more in the recording. Either way the video does give you a good sense of what piano is sounding like on the Trios == Very good.

Enjoy.

Sounds really excellent! I notice that your L10 volume is -8db. That is pretty high. What is the L10 volume level with your old speaker?

 

[sbnx]

Is Stirling an expert in setting up Trio?

He is an expert at setting up all speakers. He has setup Trios before. All he does is go from system to system optimizing their setup. He has setup several pairs of the WIlson Master Chronosonic, Magico M9's, YG Sonjia, big Magnapans, the big Goebel speakers, Rockport Lyra .... I think it would be challenging to name a speaker he has not setup.

 

[sbnx]

Sounds really excellent! I notice that your L10 volume is -8db. That is pretty high. What is the L10 volume level with your old speaker?

This performace was recorded pretty low in level. So compared with typical stuff I have to move the volume up about 10 clicks. Plus I do listen on the louder side.

I did not own the L10 in my previous system.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Have you done any FR measurements at the listening spot ??

 

[Elliot G.]

I would encourage anyone to reach out to either Stirling Trayle or Jim Smith to help with dialing in the Trios. The cost of this is pretty minimal compared to the cost of just the speakers let alone the cost of the whole system. When I am done and get them as good as I can then I will call Striling to help push them beyond where I can get them. I am willing to pay for that last 10% (Likely more) of performance between my setup and his. I don't think there is any harm in asking a highly qualified person to come help. Both Stirling and Jim have setup 1000's of systems and know what to do to get anyone's system to sound the best it can. (One side note: even though dealers have setup up a lot of systems they really have not developed the skill to truely dial in a speaker. It is just not what they do. They are mostly about the gear and helping you match the right gear to the right speaker etc

IMO this is the proper way to maximize the visit by a set up professional. Get the system as far as you can, burned in, hundreds of hours and then let ST or JS do their thing. I also believe for most that this is the best money they will ever spnd. I speak from my own personal experience of hearing large numbers of systems of all kinds of gear that is just not set up to their best possible outcome.

 

[caesar]

I used the MSB DAC Remote to invert phase. I could also use the L10 remote but I like the MSB. Try it on some albums and see what you think. For example almost all Dire Straits albums are inverted phase.

you are right. especially, many of the original CDs that were transferred from analog in 80s and 90s.

But…
You can drive yourself crazy doing that

 

[caesar]

Not many. And definitely not many that are willing to help other people setup their systems. (Even for a fee). If you want to experience this then give Stirling Trayle a call and have him setup your system.

sure, I understand what you’re saying. but that guy got Wilson in his avatar, and setup has subjective tastes. So I don’t trust his taste at all.

id go Jim Smith , personally.

 

[caesar]

Not many. And definitely not many that are willing to help other people setup their systems. (Even for a fee). If you want to experience this then give Stirling Trayle a call and have him setup your system.

I find every dealer and confident / experienced audiophile has a well developed taste (obviously, many are wandering aimlessly and gear hopping for years - so not considering those here ).

Something they are passionate about - if dealer , passionateLy present to clients, and if audiophile, just turn on the system and lick into a state of flow immediately without thinking of switching something in the system.

and i believe the same goes for setup guys

 

[caesar]

My apologies if This has been covered already, as this thread is over a month, and I’ve been busy jumping in and out…

bit what is the recommended distance for the speaker from the front wall? (Wall Behind the speakers)

I find , generally, one needs a minimum of 5 feet is necessary to prevent the bass waves washing over the speakers and hurting transparency. But preferably more in many instances

 

[sbnx]

You

you are right. especially, many of the original CDs that were transferred from analog in 80s and 90s.

But…
You can drive yourself crazy doing that

no need to drive. I am already there.

 

[sbnx]

My apologies if This has been covered already, as this thread is over a month, and I’ve been busy jumping in and out…

bit what is the recommended distance for the speaker from the front wall? (Wall Behind the speakers)

I find , generally, one needs a minimum of 5 feet is necessary to prevent the bass waves washing over the speakers and hurting transparency. But preferably more in many instances

I dont think i have ever seen a published recommended distance. Most setups i see have them relatively close to the front wall. I am somewhere about 12 or 13 feet. I also feel that the farther out the better.

 

[microstrip]

Give credit where credit is due. Roy did a great job of exploring the Trios when he had them. I got the idea of lowering the iTron gain from his review. He was right about these things having a significant impact. I think he might have dropped all of the gain switches down so the iTron was at -10.5dB of gain. I might have to play with that some too. I did not independently try just lowering the gain by -3 and listening and then raising the gain the L10 by +3 and listening. For sure, the technically correct way is to lower it and get the impact of that. Then slowly increase the gain on the L10 assessing that. I just jumped right in the deep end.

In order to carry this type of experiment we have to be sure that the level settings are accurately calibrated in dB - I have seen volume controls with dB scales showing up to .8 dB error between steps and up to 4 dB in the full scale. A .5 dB is enough to compromise our findings. In case of doubt check with a test tone and an AC voltmeter - an hand held sound meter is not adequate to such task.

 

[caesar]

You

no need to drive. I am already there.

Yeah, that’s one thing about setting up or trying new stuff that I hate ... listening to the same songs and fragments over and over for differences…

yet many guys seem to love… tweak stuff all the time, get a bunch of new gadgets or cables from the cable company… I just don’t get it

 

[microstrip]

IMO this is the proper way to maximize the visit by a set up professional. Get the system as far as you can, burned in, hundreds of hours and then let ST or JS do their thing. I also believe for most that this is the best money they will ever spnd. I speak from my own personal experience of hearing large numbers of systems of all kinds of gear that is just not set up to their best possible outcome.

The idea looks nice, everyone seems to love it, but I have not read of any member of this forum that has a system set up and tuned by such experts. It they exist I would like to know about their experience.

What I read mostly in audio forums it that people pay a lot to experts to design their rooms and than do not use them as advised by the designers ...