Toward a Better WBF…

[XV-1]

Ooh boy. Where to start…

1. Standard accommodation is 50% off, 25% is extremely rare and I have only heard one case of it and it involved a piece of prototype gear.

2. The price has gone up because of parts price increases primarily. I know of two loudspeakers designers complaining about some metal parts going up 4x and 5x.

3. If you talk to Alon at Magico, he will tell you that a manufacturer needs to be at 4-6X Bill of Materials to earn a good return.

Really? Maxx2 to Maxx3 went from 44k to 68k, Alexx 109k, AlexxV 135k

All the same size function, number of drivers, designed speaker based on what Wilson have learnt manufacturing for 35 years.
We know the drivers have very little cost. Wilson has been manufacturing for a long time now, so synergies and cost reductions should be part of this equation like any other manufacturing business.

However prices are going exponentially higher.

How many speakers do Wilson manufacture now vs 20 and 10 years ago?

 

[Lagonda]

Whilst we are trying to make this forum a better place, can we please drop the 'wife acceptance factor' line. Perhaps both partners have a love of music and interest in HiFi and perhaps both partners are also interested in design and style... just saying.

So the rest of the forum should drop a phrase, because your wife listens to music or reads over your shoulder ?

 

[Lagonda]

I understand what you are saying. But isn't that where the sonic subjectivity comes in?

In other words you don't think that the higher price of Apex leads to a sonically better component. But for people who think dCS Apex is the best-sounding digital playback they have ever heard, then they will think that the higher price, and the technology underlying the higher price, is justified.

I, personally, wouldn't pay the price of Apex, but that is only because I literally, honest to God, hold my hand over my heart, subjectively prefer the sound of my $6,500 MSRP Lampizator Baltic 4. Obviously, people who love the sound of the dCS components would think I'm "wrong." But that has nothing to do with the fact that I have a enormous respect for the leading edge technology built into the Apex (which I studied extensively preparing for an interview with dCS which did not happen).

Ron i applaud you for walking the tightrope between giving your own honest opinion about equipment and the marketing dollars alway lurking in the background of a commercial advertising financed venture like WBF in its current state. Don't let yourself get pulled to the dark side, like most of the magazine's have !

 

[microstrip]

DCS, Wilson, Mofi are all overpriced downward spiral products that by their very price and price rises seek out less music lovers, not more and add to the entire downward spiral of high end.

If one is selling less, jack the price up to keep margins and cash flow, however eventually you reach a stage where prices are unrealistic and virtually nobody is being this gear.

Reviewers keep giving great reviews and " overall value for money statements " where the reality is, the public is being shafted.
Even at 25% accommodation cost for long term reviewers, the price is probably getting steep on some of these high priced products.

Wilson and DCS certainly are not the only ones with this downward spiral of growing inflated prices.

Overall the cost to the industry is many manufacturers will go out of business as they will have priced themselves out of staying in business with regular cashflow. Many audiophiles who got suckered into high priced hifi gear will be pissed with no after sales service.

Just my opinion and I am a happy Wilson owner. I am not a happy potential Wilson upgrade owner as the replacement for my Maxx3's are priced like a high price sharleton they are so high.

YMMV

Do you realize that the very high prices existed before the brands you refer entered their top current lines? The italian and german high-end guides of ten years ago showed such items.

Why do people focus against the more appreciated and successful lines and forget the Gaudi's or the top Living Voice's or the ultra expensive turntables?

Never before the lower price items of high-end top manufacturers have shown such good performance versus price quality - they are abundantly covered in the audio press and happily ignored in WBF ...

 

[Ron Resnick]

Maxx2 to Maxx3 went from 44k to 68k, Alexx 109k, AlexxV 135k

However prices are going exponentially higher.

I am pretty sure the price increase you cite is not "exponential."

 

[PYP]

Perhaps the OP was referring to a thread in which two people were trading barbs for an extended period. Personally, I have come to expect incivility in threads, but I thought these two fellows were waisting every else's time. I thought their exchange added nothing to the discussion. So much urine at this end of the pool.

 

[XV-1]

Do you realize that the very high prices existed before the brands you refer entered their top current lines? The italian and german high-end guides of ten years ago showed such items.

Why do people focus against the more appreciated and successful lines and forget the Gaudi's or the top Living Voice's or the ultra expensive turntables?

Never before the lower price items of high-end top manufacturers have shown such good performance versus price quality - they are abundantly covered in the audio press and happily ignored in WBF ...

Of course I do. I guess that makes it acceptable then.

What Wilson products have gotten cheaper with better performance?

 

[XV-1]

I am pretty sure the price increase you cite is not "exponential."

44k to 135k for essential the same product. What do you call it Ron?

 

[bonzo75]

Do you realize that the very high prices existed before the brands you refer entered their top current lines? The italian and german high-end guides of ten years ago showed such items.

Why do people focus against the more appreciated and successful lines and forget the Gaudi's or the top Living Voice's or the ultra expensive turntables?

Never before the lower price items of high-end top manufacturers have shown such good performance versus price quality - they are abundantly covered in the audio press and happily ignored in WBF ...

nothing against the companies, or against coke or Pepsi. They are all great marketing companies. Problem is against those who constantly drink sugar drinks that really have no taste either, and those who think Kellogg cereals are healthy. It is the users, not the companies. Those who think these prices are justified and reflect sonic or technological or both superiorities.

this thread covers the discussion

Thread 'Extreme Luxury Pricing in Audio'
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/extreme-luxury-pricing-in-audio.37112/

 

[andromedaaudio]

People should shop more for secondhand products .
There is far more value to be found in this more or less stagnant industry.

Unless you wanna spend a lot of $$$ on the magazine ( adds ) gravy train

 

[Al M.]

Perhaps the OP was referring to a thread in which two people were trading barbs for an extended period. Personally, I have come to expect incivility in threads, but I thought these two fellows were waisting every else's time. I thought their exchange added nothing to the discussion. So much urine at this end of the pool.

As usual, everyone perceives things differently. I found it an interesting discussion. Especially since one of the participants presented actual data and explained them.

 

[morricab]

I see. Well that is where we disagree then on this.

I don't think Lee is pushing an agenda. I don't think he has a pecuniary affiliation with any industry media or any industry manufacturer at this point. (Lee, please correct me if I'm wrong about this.)

I think Lee is posting merely as a passionate owner of the brands and products he actually owns and loves.

I think Lee and Micro got miffed that I said Wilson's claims of time alignment are false. I never said I hate Wilson or that Wilson sucks... I just pointed out that they are not time aligned. That set off a huge amounts of huffing and puffing from Lee and Micro...neither of which seem to be equipped to rebutt the data. Lee and Micro then both resorted to "appeal to authority" rather than addressing the data. The funny thing is that the "authority" was changing his terminology over the years and just by coincidence (ah, there's that word again) it aligns (again that word too ) with Wilson making claims of time alignment...

Nothing I wrote to Lee was rude, unless criticizing a brand for making demonstrably false claims is rude. I remember when Audio Note UK was quoting a sensitivity specification of 96dB for one of the E versions but the Stereophile measurement was something around 91dB. So, the real sensitivity was some 5dB lower than claimed, which I don't have to tell you makes a pretty big difference in power requirements. At the time they were taken to task over it...now probably largely forgotten.

 

[morricab]

So true - I cringe every time I hear this phrase. FFS we're in the 21st century!

Do you have a wife that doesn't love your hobby?...if no, then you have no idea how powerful WAF is.

 

[bonzo75]

44k to 135k for essential the same product. What do you call it Ron?

chump change, or chump’s change

 

[Fred Crane]

I wonder if a forum wherein people can have disposable moments of recognition (protagonist and antagonist both
anonymous) would be helpful in today's climate of on-line interaction. An emotional dust bin of sorts. Everyone gets their last word and is briefly acknowledged, (there is a 2 week period before posts are deleted.) and moves on. It is the on-line parallel to making sure that all the participants in a youth soccer tournament receive a trophy, regardless of how abysmal their performance.

I think that WBF does a fine job. In a situation where imperfection, spirited discourse, and absolute rights in complete opposition are bound to occur, there's very little blood on the floor...thanks to Ron, Steve, Julian and staff.

 

[Joe Whip]

It would be great if people used their real names on all forums, comment sections and the like,

 

[microstrip]

(...) Problem is against those who constantly drink sugar drinks that really have no taste either, and those who think Kellogg cereals are healthy. It is the users, not the companies.

No, the real problem is mostly with those who want to be the dogmatic judges that determine what are the drinks that are "sugar drinks that really have no taste" and consider that if others have different taste preference they must be inferior samplers.

Those who think these prices are justified and reflect sonic or technological or both superiorities.

According to many people preference it happens many times, what is your problem with it?

this thread covers the discussion

Thread 'Extreme Luxury Pricing in Audio'
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/extreme-luxury-pricing-in-audio.37112/

Oh yes, the thread on the DartZeel cartridge $1M bluff ...

 

[bonzo75]

According to many people preference it happens many times, what is your problem with it?

that they don’t cite it as a preference but as an inevitability (pricier the better, of course). Not even understanding what factors into the price, is it purely margin or is it cost of materials, R&D, demand silly curve, what? Price is a very complex attribute, and not as simple as the retail sticker. And they seem not to have researched other products sufficiently to make that statement

if people said they heard a basket of products of varying prices, and sonically preferred the costliest one in that basket, or has some other objective (WAF, local service, resell ability etc) for which they bought it, it is fine. Then it will primarily be a function of why his preference is difference from someone else’s

 

[wil]

No, the real problem is mostly with those who want to be the dogmatic judges that determine what are the drinks that are "sugar drinks that really have no taste" and consider that if others have different taste preference they must be inferior samplers.



According to many people preference it happens many times, what is your problem with it?



Oh yes, the thread on the DartZeel cartridge $1M bluff ...

Well, since you bring it up again, where’s the evidence that it’s a “bluff.”

 

[Joe Whip]

Not to open up another can of worms here, but double blind testing can help determine this. But, DBT don’t seems to be accepted in audio,