Tripoint Troy Elite - Installed

[Audiocrack]

The secret is which claims on the website are a lie. They cannot all be true - not in this reality. But if I was him I wouldn't share any information either. Fact is that even though it probably just spews RF into the lines, it creates a result people pay money for and are pleased with.



As stated before, it either does or does not create loops while the vice-versa is that it either does or does not normalize potentials. And this can be useful sometimes when you have too many separate but dirty lines back to the breaker. It isn't ideal to make extra paths, but it beats the hell out of irritating noise that is audible. The smart solution to normalize potentials is to the shortest runs possible. But isn't what happens when you're amps are by the speakers on separate AC lines than your sources all on the same one on a rack - where extra cables are a moot point essentially. So the best advice is probably don't use separate AC lines unless they're dedicated.

As far as engineering, that's a loaded question. Technically anything like this that would be almost assured to act like an antenna (based on all grounding boxes thus far, their description, and when I've heard them) is horrible "engineering". But that depends on what you're engineering for, if your goals are to engineer for exactly what they do, then you're doing awesome. But most engineers are waaay toooo egotistical to ever accept the idea of purposely loading up some RF.

Accusing somebody of lying in public, well you are using are some strong words. I leave it at that because after such an accusation any discussion does not make any sense.

 

[ack]

Voodoo? Have you tried a Tripoint product? I'm not offended, just curious. What is proper grounding and how does Tripoint not qualify? I've never claimed superiority but I don't want it out of my system either.

Dave

No need to try anything that cannot outperform proper engineering techniques. The question is: has anyone tried proper grounding first, before spending money on this stuff? Doesn't look like it.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Apparently, people have not experimented with proper grounding before resorting to this voodoo, hence all these claims of superiority. That's the message that's been missing. It's not doing anything more than what proper engineering practices with respect to proper grounding can do.

now this is familiar ground. where 'since I have not heard it, and don't see how it could be different.......it's not possible'.

I'm sure everything that could be learned, has already been learned.....and you learned it.

btw; I've showed my Phd in Physics son-in-law the Tripoint boxes, and plugged and un-plugged them for him. he heard what they did. I asked him how he thought they worked.

he just shrugged his shoulders and said if I wanted to know how they worked, and would pay for the lab time to investigate, that he and his team could investigate it. but that he could not guarantee 'the' answer......but he could give me 'an' answer. "we don't know everything".....is how he put it.

 

[ack]

now this is familiar ground. where 'since I have not heard it, and don't see how it could be different.......it's not possible'.

I'm sure everything that could be learned, has already been learned.....and you learned it.

btw; I've showed my Phd in Physics son-in-law the Tripoint boxes, and plugged and un-plugged them for him. he heard what they did. I asked him how he thought they worked.

he just shrugged his shoulders and said if I wanted to know how they worked, and would pay for the lab time to investigate, that he could investigate it. but that he could not guarantee 'the' answer......but he could give me 'an' answer. "we don't know everything".....is how he put it.

You have confirmed that you have not tried proper grounding. And yes, I have learned it, and quite well in fact. Have you?

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ack, Folsom: now you guys are posting exactly what Audiocrack was complaining about.

We have very experienced members who are swearing by these Tripoint products. Just because the manufacturer will not tell us how he thinks it works, and just because we do not know how it works, does not mean it is voodoo.

 

[ack]

Ack, Folsom: now you guys are posting exactly what Audiocrack was complaining about.

We have very experienced members who are swearing by these Tripoint products. Just because the manufacturer will not tell us how he thinks it works, and just because we do not know how it works, does not mean it is voodoo.

No one disputes that these devices have an effect, and that people hear it, and that it is even positive. What we are saying is that they cannot surpass proper and well established grounding techniques.

 

[sbo6]

No one disputes that these devices have an effect, and that people hear it, and that it is even positive. What we are saying is that they cannot surpass proper and well established grounding techniques.

Can you please give an example of what would constitute proper and well established grounding techniques assuming it's above employing quality 3 prong power cables and as per code electrical grounding for circuits, breakers and the breaker box?

 

[ack]

Can you please give an example of what would constitute proper and well established grounding techniques assuming it's above employing quality 3 prong power cables and as per code electrical grounding for circuits, breakers and the breaker box?

It's all in post 71 http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...lite-Installed&p=506111&viewfull=1#post506111

Never mind what I say, I hope people would also pay a little more attention to what Shunyata have posted in the past numerous times about grounds. That's real engineering, not this voodoo

 

[microstrip]

Respectfully disagree, Micro, as regards the weak argument regarding DIY and competition. To me it is completely understandable that someone who invested large sums of money and countless hours to reach the level he is at at the moment keeps all important knowlegde for himself.

Ok, if our disagreement is just on the DIY and competition part, it is not important. My main question is that manufacturers of these products use misleading technical specifications and sometimes ridiculous technical wording to please marketing. As soon as they enter this field, people are free to point these inaccuracies and denigrate their products. However if the message was simply "listen for yourself, we believe it will improve the sound quality of your system" people would not enter technical debates.

Although I am prepared to accept and even enjoy subjective hyperbole, I am less tolerant with techno pseudo scientific verbiage. Please note I am not pointing to any specif manufacturer, my comments are general.

 

[Audiocrack]

They have different goals, mate.

Mike likes his insane soundstage, and being able read the whole musical scene to a high degree. Your grounding methods do not exaggerate the high frequencies to create this same type of sound. You have entirely different goals.

One final remark: exaggerate the high frequencies with Tripoint components? You have really no idea what you are talking about I am afraid.

 

[Audiocrack]

Ok, if our disagreement is just on the DIY and competition part, it is not important. My main question is that manufacturers of thesze products use misleading technical specifications and sometimes ridiculous technical wording to please marketing. As soon as they enter this field, people are free to point these inaccuracies and denigrate their products. However if the message was simply "listen for yourself, we believe it will improve the sound quality of your system" people would not enter technical debates.


Although I am prepared to accept and even enjoy subjective hyperbole, I am less tolerant with techno pseudo scientific verbiage. Please note I am not pointing to any specif manufacturer, my comments are general.

Totally agree with your general comments.

The main point that I wanted to make this afternoon in my reply to Ron was that some of our members bash products that they do not have any experience with, let alone that they understand the techniques that are actually being employed. That is behavior that I in all honesty do not understand. And just to be sure: of course there are not only just a few ‘strange fellows’ on this forum who are impressed with their ‘voodoo’ Tripoint components but a large number of audiophiles all over the world with great audio systems. Hard to believe that no one of these persons understands anything about grounding and that they all are being fooled. But I will let it go because it is a waste of time arguing with people who use words like ‘lies’ and ‘voodoo’.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ron, so you’re a convert to the grounding cause before you’ve changed your skeptical mind on fuses?

i AM surprised .

 

[microstrip]

No need to try anything that cannot outperform proper engineering techniques. The question is: has anyone tried proper grounding first, before spending money on this stuff? Doesn't look like it.

Although I do not know what you exactly mean by "proper grounding" - no two people in the forum have the same idea on this subject in this forum - I have tried grounding all the individual parts of the system with thick multi-wire cooper ground to a single ground point and no improvements were noticed. While I was waiting for a few extra Nordost QRT Qkore custom grounding wires I tried using good quality Supra4 speaker wire for these connections. Later replacing them with the Nordost QRT Qkore lead to a significant improvement.

 

[Speedskater]

Can you please give an example of what would constitute proper and well established grounding techniques assuming it's above employing quality 3 prong power cables and as per code electrical grounding for circuits, breakers and the breaker box?

Some industrial grounding systems:

Grounding Systems

SRPP :: System Reference Potential Plane
STGP :: Signal Transport Ground Plane
ZSRG :: Zero Signal Reference Grid
ZSRG :: Zero Signal Reference Conductors
ZSRP :: Zero Signal Reference Potential
ZSRP :: Zero Signal Reference Plane
MESH-CBN :: Meshed Common Bonding Network
MESH-IBN :: Meshed Isolated Bonding Network
PEC :: Paralleled Earth Conductors
PBC :: Paralleled Bonding Conductors

* * * * * * * * *
Note that Keith Armstrong prefers to call them:

Conductive Structure

 

[SuperDave]

Apparently, people have not experimented with proper grounding before resorting to this voodoo, hence all these claims of superiority. That's the message that's been missing. It's not doing anything more than what proper engineering practices with respect to proper grounding can do.

With all due respect, Ack & Folsom, if you don't believe Tripoint is a valid grounding device that's not doing anything more than what proper engineering practices with respect to proper grounding can do in Ack's words, why are you on this thread? You both sound technically qualified which I can't dispute but if you have never listened to something, any argument against it doesn't carry any weight. Did you come here to tell me I wasted my money based on your scientific knowledge of grounding but are unable to make any comparisons? I still would like to hear what "proper grounding" is and how it differs from the Voodoo so many people speak so highly of.

 

[bonzo75]

now this is familiar ground. where 'since I have not heard it, and don't see how it could be different.......it's not possible'.

I'm sure everything that could be learned, has already been learned.....and you learned it.

btw; I've showed my Phd in Physics son-in-law the Tripoint boxes, and plugged and un-plugged them for him. he heard what they did. I asked him how he thought they worked.

he just shrugged his shoulders and said if I wanted to know how they worked, and would pay for the lab time to investigate, that he and his team could investigate it. but that he could not guarantee 'the' answer......but he could give me 'an' answer. "we don't know everything".....is how he put it.

This post should be a sticky for everytime someone without experience of a product says they know what it's doing because they have tried a different product claiming similar benefits that they thought they knew what it was doing

 

[ack]

While looking for Shunyata's excellent write-ups on grounding, I ran into this very good WBF thread http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?16671-Taking-care-of-grounding with some really good content, e.g.

1) From Atmasphere:

It turns out though that equipment can be grounded and not ground-looped at the same time and if this is properly done, will perform better in such a way that no grounding system will bring any further improvement. The only reason such systems exist at all is because grounding is so poorly understood by designers in high end audio. Too many are hobbyists without degrees...

The chassis should be hard-grounded to the ground connection at the wall, plain and simple. The audio circuitry within the chassis should not, but should be referenced by some means to chassis ground. If this is done properly, the result will be lower noise and smoother sound as ground loops can cause intermodulations and the chassis can then do its job of shielding. This is the big result many people get when using grounding systems, but if their equipment was properly grounded in the first place it would sound even better (and the add-on grounding systems would have no effect or actually be detrimental).

2) From Speedskater a link to "An Overview of Audio System Grounding and Interfacing" http://centralindianaaes.files.wordp...notes-v1-0.pdf - a very long PDF, but covers the subject in its entirety; sufficient to search for '“Star” (single-point) grounding', as a starter for deeper investigation.

Lastly, if anyone thinks that Mr. Tripoint or any others like him woke up one day and just figured out proper grounding, let's hear it.

 

[ack]

This post should be a sticky for everytime someone without experience of a product says they know what it's doing because they have tried a different product claiming similar benefits that they thought they knew what it was doing

No, I like better Mike's recent claim that the ML3s sound their best in his system only (shall I go get that exact quote?). I bet he has heard all combinations and all systems.

 

[ack]

Here's another great post http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...eed-assistance&p=350937&viewfull=1#post350937 from DaveC

People create problems for themselves by making the AC power system way more complicated than it needs to be and plugging components into separate lines whose grounds don't tie together close enough to the audio system. The whole point of grounding is to create a reference voltage that is exactly the same everywhere in the system. In practice this can never happen, but the issues can be reduced significantly by following good grounding and power distribution practices.

 

[Speedskater]

Keith Armstrong has a good article on grounding (conductive structure):

[h=1]Fundamentals of EMC Design: Our Products Are Trying To Help Us[/h]https://interferencetechnology.com/fundamentals-of-emc-design-our-products-are-trying-to-help-us-3/#

scroll down to between figures #10 & #11 to:
There is No Such Thing as “Earth” or “Ground” for SI, PI and EMC