Tripoint Troy Elite - Installed
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You refer to an excellent article but sorry to say that IMHO you give the worst possible advice - if people do not understand the article, skip the physics and read just a few comments they will probably get a completely wrong perspective on the subject.
This aspect was also made more evident in part of the new text of the new edition (2016) of the classic book of Ralph Morrison Grounding and Shielding: Circuits and Interference we often refer. The spectrum of interference changed significantly in in the last twenty years, different approaches are needed to deal with it.
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I’m sorry, Marc, but I just don’t understand. I have always believed that proper grounding is an important part of an audio system’s electrical infrastructure.
How does simply asking some questions about how Tripoint improves an already proper and robust grounding infrastructure to try to understand how Tripoint works make me a convert to anything?
Heck, skip the reading part (some of it is way deep) just look at the grounding photos.
While I don't have that book, I do have three 1986 thru 1992 Ralph Morrison books. The one I like best is "Grounding and Shielding in Facilities".This aspect was also made more evident in part of the new text of the new edition (2016) of the classic book of Ralph Morrison Grounding and Shielding: Circuits and Interference we often refer. The spectrum of interference changed significantly in in the last twenty years, different approaches are needed to deal with it.
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The new book is rather pricey, do you think that I should spend the money?
Y’all are talk’in past each other. This reminds me of that ole’ curmudgeon engineer who says “if it measures the same then it sounds the same, and if ya think it sounds different I’ve got a bridge to sell ya.”
I think this is a variation on the objectivist versus subjectivist debate: “if we cannot explain scientifically what is happening, then that means that nothing is happening.”
I think this is a variation on the objectivist versus subjectivist debate: “if we cannot explain scientifically what is happening, then that means that nothing is happening.”
I refute that entirely, and consider this a wholly rude comment. I am constantly trying to help guide people to understand this stuff, and have answered a multitude of your questions. But what really erks me is the fact that I very very specifically state all of these products do work - just state that how they work is not the same as what people believe esp since manufacturers won't commit product suicide by telling the truth.
When I say high frequencies I am not talking about flutes. I mean actual frequencies. The "airiness" effect is very specifically exagerated high frequencies. Lower frequencies are not the same because they do not carry spatial infiormation like that. They are however changed. You cannot load up on RF without doing so. You simply presume these products are with no trade off, and work as the manufacturers like to claim. But geniuses wide and far that are engineers on many things, including RF, very distinctly will say these products defy all known physics and reality itself to meet the accredited function told by manufacturers. My point being that it isnt just me, a guy who does work on designing electronics, it is the world and reality itself that say no, it isnt possible. If it were there is no chance in hell these guys would be accepting peanuts for their quantum engineering (or worm hole, who knows, something totally unknown), when they could be making millions.
Why is everyone grouping me with Ack? I am profoundly saying different things than he is saying. I don't suggest his application if anything. I cannot overstate that I say these products work, but the "tech" explanations are at least half bogus. So please do me the favor and read what I have wrote, with some deliberation. You will have to suffer the duality of what I am saying - but it is a respect I try to afford everyone else.
I write this in good faith that maybe you will start actually reading what I type.
Proper grounding is important or your equipment would be dangerous and/or not work. But if you think it is not built into the equipment, what do you believe, fairy dust? The guys designing the gear (amp, DAC, etc) are eons beyond what it takes to design these grounding boxes. The most important factor to designing a "grounding device" is too understand you are not trying to engineer a technically by the numbers product, but you suck up your ego and give them what they want - even if it is just an RF antenna. They accomplish something entirely different than actual grounding. The safety earth and/or circuit ground is simply the path where they use to accomplish the goal.
If you read the subsequent quotes I provided, especially the brilliant post by Atmasphere, you may be able to better judge one way or another whether you wasted your money or not. The question I would ask is this: what sort of problem are these things attempting to solve that decades worth of proper engineering have not been able to. My answer: none; it's been solved and quite well; we are just not grounding components correctly. The so called grounding box manufacturers should take my question as a challenge to come out clean and explain what they think they are doing.
no. they should not. they should know their customer base and be responsive to them and not worry about nay sayers. they owe them nothing......and the odds of it ending up as a positive for these products is remote. Tripoint customers are not asking these questions and need no one to 'help' us.
I am perfectly comfortable believing that somehow Tripoint is improving the sound of clients' systems, even if we do not know technically how the improvement is being accomplished.
And a smarter engineer said (to paraphrase) if a meaningful difference is heard, than a skilled engineer with the correct equipment can measure and identify the reason for that audible difference.
Does not apply to transducers or rooms.
A better variation would be:
"If we can not hear a difference ears only, then that means that nothing is happening.”
+1.
Ack, I think you are hung up on believing that these devices need to act like like the claims. They do not, because they do work despite not working typically in any fashion as claimed. Customers that like what they do are happy, no matter what the tech talk says. Furthermore they can be measured, and despite Ron's prevalence to deny people that know something, telling him how they work, we do know mostly, if not wholly - depending on the specific product - how they work.
They simply are not trying to replacing real grounding. They do not work that way - hence the bogus part in advertising. So there is no reason to compare them to the engineering of Atmosphere or anyone else.
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Folsom, I apologize for lumping you with Ack in my earlier post. You have been making a totally different point than Ack.
If Miguel will not tell us how he thinks the Tripoint works, and if you have never taken apart a Tripoint, how can you be so certain that you "know mostly, if not wholly, how it works"?
If Miguel will not tell us how he thinks the Tripoint works, and if you have never taken apart a Tripoint, how can you be so certain that you "know mostly, if not wholly, how it works"?
That will make sure the equipment is not at different potentials. But dedicated lines work well for this, too. What works poorly is just using whatever sockets are in the house from multiple walls that are tied to all sorts of different things.
"Ground loops" exist in some way shape or form to all audio gear. For example if your DAC to amp used balanced cables forms a loop from safety ground at your power distribution strip/box or 2 socket wall receptacles then through each component to it's chassis, connecting on the shield of the XLR cable. That is a loop. But if your amp is on another circuit then the loop is the size back to the breaker box from both AC wall receptacles. Generally both of these loops are fairly benign on a balanced system. But you get the idea that depending on how the equipment is made you can grow or shrink loop paths pretty quickly. But the potential difference starts to play a factor to increase the noise when your receptacles are not running off of dedicated circuits, and there are other devices screwing everything up on the AC lines.
SO Dave's advise is good if you don't need the extra power. It is just easy assurance that you won't have a bigger than necessary loop at any time. Some gear will be immune to massive loops, other will not - both can still be good pieces of equipment.
The only way I can describe what they do is a form of star grounding the chassis together. The metal enclosures act as Faraday cages and capture current noise and transformer leakage. These devices provide a pathway to remove this common mode noise from the system. The results are much greater clarity,moving the listener closer to the music, much better defined and powerful bass,and a excellent holographic multi dimensional sound stage. In other words greater realism of the illusion.
May I refer you to the LA Assoluta thread in which I inter alia describe that I am using an earthpin of 45 meters (resulting in a 1.52 Ohms resistanse) that is (solely) connected through a pure copper cable with my dedicated audio power distributor. Adding my various Tripoint components made a big difference for the better.
Thank you Ron, I really appreciate that.
There are very limited possibilities to what you can do when equipment is galvanicly isolated (the transformer in your amp or preamp etc). The one thing that you can coerce fairly easily is RF, because it plays a very different game.
I'm going to draw a few schematics that you'll be able to easily follow, and I'll post them to show you why we know about the limitation of possibilities. And then the conclusion will make sense. If we were solely talking about the Entreq, well, we have seen all of it and measured it so there is zero question there. But I want to include new devices to complete the picture.
Power conditioning is totally different than star grounding....two different animals. Power conditioning cannot remove current produced hash from inside the electronics. Good engineered cables can reduce current hash,but to totally reduce the hash some form is star grounding is needed. The size of the star ground pathway is the most important aspect.
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