The only way I can describe what they do is a form of star grounding the chassis together. The metal enclosures act as Faraday cages and capture current noise and transformer leakage. These devices provide a pathway to remove this common mode noise from the system. The results are much greater clarity,moving the listener closer to the music, much better defined and powerful bass,and a excellent holographic multi dimensional sound stage. In other words greater realism of the illusion.
Firstly a Faraday cage has no holes, so that isn't true; as more of an anecdote. (speaker binding posts, RCA's, IEC, all gaps)
Maybe the fastest way to help you understand is to tell you that electrons flow from ground to positive.
Common mode noise is noise that is on both L and N (line and neutral) coupling to safety ground at multiple points in the equipment. So the damage is done once the common mode noise is in the equipment, and cannot be removed by taking the path it was already taking - that is destructive.
The majority of these devices don't have a path anywhere, because they are only connected to your existing equipment. You have to create a complete circuit. The box itself cannot drain anything itself. And in nearly all boxes the grounds are not connected so you haven't created a new path to another ground on another piece of equipment. So, to put it simply back to my first point about this entirety, is you don't have an electron source within a ground box that isn't connected to any possible source. And even if it is one that plugs into the wall, it's only a slightly more restive path that already existed - unlikely to provide any improvements.
They give you your benefits you hear, but they are not doing it because of what you're saying.
Firstly a Faraday cage has no holes, so that isn't true; as more of an anecdote. (speaker binding posts, RCA's, IEC, all gaps)
Maybe the fastest way to help you understand is to tell you that electrons flow from ground to positive.
Common mode noise is noise that is on both L and N (line and neutral) coupling to safety ground at multiple points in the equipment. So the damage is done once the common mode noise is in the equipment, and cannot be removed by taking the path it was already taking - that is destructive.
The majority of these devices don't have a path anywhere, because they are only connected to your existing equipment. You have to create a complete circuit. The box itself cannot drain anything itself. And in nearly all boxes the grounds are not connected so you haven't created a new path to another ground on another piece of equipment. So, to put it simply back to my first point about this entirety, is you don't have an electron source within a ground box that isn't connected to any possible source. And even if it is one that plugs into the wall, it's only a slightly more restive path that already existed - unlikely to provide any improvements.
They give you your benefits you hear, but they are not doing it because of what you're saying.
That is ridiculous. Sound engineers have star grounded for decades. How do they have noise floors so low with hundreds of feet of cabling. I literally LMAO at these devices. This is not rocket science I'll bet anybody 500 bucks that star grounding can produce a unbelievable SQ...come to Reno and I'll make a believer out of any listener.
No. Sorry Roger but that isn't quiet it. Firstly a Faraday cage has no holes, so that isn't true; as more of an anecdote. (speaker binding posts, RCA's, IEC, all gaps)Maybe the fastest way to help you understand is to tell you that electrons flow from ground to positive. Common mode noise is noise that is on both L and N (line and neutral) coupling to safety ground at multiple points in the equipment. So the damage is done once the common mode noise is in the equipment, and cannot be removed by taking the path it was already taking - that is destructive. The majority of these devices don't have a path anywhere, because they are only connected to your existing equipment. You have to create a complete circuit. The box itself cannot drain anything itself. And in nearly all boxes the grounds are not connected so you haven't created a new path to another ground on another piece of equipment. So, to put it simply back to my first point about this entirety, is you don't have an electron source within a ground box that isn't connected to any possible source. And even if it is one that plugs into the wall, it's only a slightly more restive path that already existed - unlikely to provide any improvements. They give you your benefits you hear, but they are not doing it because of what you're saying.
That is ridiculous. Sound engineers have star grounded for decades. How do they have noise floors so low with hundreds of feet of cabling. I literally LMAO at these devices. This is not rocket science I'll bet anybody 500 bucks that star grounding can produce a unbelievable SQ...come to Reno and I'll make a believer out of any listener.
Power conditioning is totally different than star grounding....two different animals. Power conditioning cannot remove current produced hash from inside the electronics. Good engineered cables can reduce current hash,but to totally reduce the hash some form is star grounding is needed. The size of the star ground pathway is the most important aspect.
This is nonsense, Roger. I'm not sure why you post this stuff, at least not when so many people would be more than happy to help you understand everything going on - but I don't see you asking questions.
Power conditioning can stop "hash" from going into equipment. They can, to a small degree, suppress some within the equipment in a way.
Cable mutual capacitance is unlikely to reduce noise by unloading much to its ground wire, since a very limited amount of what comes on them is of frequencies that will see it as a lower impedance path. But they can reduce the amount that they absorb from the free air based on their design. The lower the ground resistance is, the more it'll absorb the RF from the air and be coupled to from the signal side since the signal side is higher impedance. Shields can absorb some as well, and coax takes advantage of skin effect to keep RF away from signal.
The safety ground has limited impedance attributes. It's tied to the neutral in the breaker box so at no point will it ever be any better than neutral or ground rod (meant to be 25ohm or a bit lower, so not that good). The reality is safety ground typically acts more like a source for noise because the impedance isn't that impressive compared to transformers, and it's just extra wires running all over that tend to want to couple noise to the other two.
That is ridiculous. Sound engineers have star grounded for decades. How do they have noise floors so low with hundreds of feet of cabling. I literally LMAO at these devices. This is not rocket science I'll bet anybody 500 bucks that star grounding can produce a unbelievable SQ...come to Reno and I'll make a believer out of any listener.
These devices don't do what star grounding is intended to do. They are entirely different objectives. All the devices I've seen do not tie the grounds together, as in no star is created.
In no way am I denouncing star grounding, btw.
Noise floors with lots of cabling is done with balanced cables that basically make the shield of the equipments enclosure extend over all the cables, so that every piece of equipment is like one giant box.
These devices don't do what star grounding is intended to do. They are entirely different objectives. All the devices I've seen do not tie the grounds together, as in no star is created.
In no way am I denouncing star grounding, btw.
Noise floors with lots of cabling is done with balanced cables that basically make the shield of the equipments enclosure extend over all the cables, so that every piece of equipment is like one giant box.
AS soon as you tell me why it's relevant to devices that don't star ground.
Actually, while I should probably reply that, I'll tell you.
The objective reason to star ground in equipment is to avoid currents that modulate the reference. You need the reference to be at the same potential for everything, otherwise you could get a variety of problems, like shifting volume, impedance disruptions that change behavior and induce noise, and much more. Basically you wouldn't want to use a path that is in high fluctuation as the reference path for a more delicate part of the circuit because it will look like ripple to the sensitive parts.
Externally with safety ground the point is to reduce the loop size, so that there is minimal exposure to collection of more noise, and to prevent potential differences that increase 60hz noise. The 60hz noise can easily become audible if it crosses the signal chain, across interconnects, in order to try and equalize potentials. Keeping the ground wires a healthy low resistance size helps the loop noise through equipment, over the interconnects, be minimal in current; as the path back to the neutral bar & earth rod is easier.
It's a bit complicated, but we have loops in our stereos. The objective is to make them inaudible and benign. Your giant straps between equipment reduce them across interconnects. Whether it is audible or not is for you to say, and may be measurable depending on the equipment and such. But I'll tell you it is ANOTHER loop, but that isn't inherently bad if it's unloading the loop across the interconnects.
May I refer you to the LA Assoluta thread in which I inter alia describe that I am using an earthpin of 45 meters (resulting in a 1.52 Ohms resistanse) that is (solely) connected through a pure copper cable with my dedicated audio power distributor. Adding my various Tripoint components made a big difference for the better.
AS soon as you tell me why it's relevant to devices that don't star ground.
Actually, while I should probably reply that, I'll tell you.
The objective reason to star ground in equipment is to avoid currents that modulate the reference. You need the reference to be at the same potential for everything, otherwise you could get a variety of problems, like shifting volume, impedance disruptions that change behavior and induce noise, and much more. Basically you wouldn't want to use a path that is in high fluctuation as the reference path for a more delicate part of the circuit because it will look like ripple to the sensitive parts.
Externally with safety ground the point is to reduce the loop size, so that there is minimal exposure to collection of more noise, and to prevent potential differences that increase 60hz noise. The 60hz noise can easily become audible if it crosses the signal chain, across interconnects, in order to try and equalize potentials. Keeping the ground wires a healthy low resistance size helps the loop noise through equipment, over the interconnects, be minimal in current; as the path back to the neutral bar & earth rod is easier.
It's a bit complicated, but we have loops in our stereos. The objective is to make them inaudible and benign. Your giant straps between equipment reduce them across interconnects. Whether it is audible or not is for you to say, and may be measurable depending on the equipment and such. But I'll tell you it is ANOTHER loop, but that isn't inherently bad if it's unloading the loop across the interconnects.
Yes, but for all audiophile systems is to bond the equipment to a single point ground to make all current induced noise and leakage common mode.
Btw all Tripoints have a single pin chord connection to a outlet...I rest my case.
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The safety ground has limited impedance attributes. It's tied to the neutral in the breaker box so at no point will it ever be any better than neutral or ground rod (meant to be 25ohm or a bit lower, so not that good). The reality is safety ground typically acts more like a source for noise because the impedance isn't that impressive compared to transformers, and it's just extra wires running all over that tend to want to couple noise to the other two.
For noise/interference purposes, the important Safety Ground path is to the Neutral in the main breaker box. Those noise/interference currents want to get bact to that Neutral. They have little interest in Planet Earth so the high ground rod impedance doesn't matter to them.
It's a common mis-understanding in many fields of electricity, that bad AC power electricity (noise/interference) can be sent to ground. But in fact, Planet Earth does not act as a sink or sump for bad electricity. Those noise/interference currents want to get bact to their voltage source which is the power company Neutral. The ground rod plays no part in noise reduction.
Yes, but for all audiophile systems is to bond the equipment to a single point ground to make all current induced noise and leakage common mode.
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Connecting all the hi-fi components to a single point is exactly what you want to do. It will reduce ground loop area and reduce Common Impedance Coupling noise.
For noise/interference purposes, the important Safety Ground path is to the Neutral in the main breaker box. Those noise/interference currents want to get bact to that Neutral. They have little interest in Planet Earth so the high ground rod impedance doesn't matter to them.
It's a common mis-understanding in many fields of electricity, that bad AC power electricity (noise/interference) can be sent to ground. But in fact, Planet Earth does not act as a sink or sump for bad electricity. Those noise/interference currents want to get bact to their voltage source which is the power company Neutral. The ground rod plays no part in noise reduction.
I hope you're telling that for everyone else's reference, because it's not for me since I specifically said the same thing in different terms. The impedance to the transformer feeding your house is obviously better than 25ohm.
Yes, but for all audiophile systems is to bond the equipment to a single point ground to make all current induced noise and leakage common mode.
Btw all Tripoints have a single pin chord connection to a outlet...I rest my case.
So you half way repeat me... and then jump to the conclusion that Tripoints chord connections directly connect all the grounds coming into them to the wall? That is an extra loop, and potentially a bad one if it's on another AC line. But, the Tripoint wouldn't offer the improvements that they give if it was merely a bonding system - it's not. As stated by multiple members here, they have tried bonding and it didn't do anything for most of them, but grounding boxes did do something for them.
We also know that as an alternative path to ground (if so), they'll only see up to half (less really) of the potential noise on safety ground that the enclosure shields. The noise will divide itself across both the safety ground for the equipments IEC cord, and to a grounding box (if a path exists). But if the tripoint has a filter of any kind it'll be high impedance and no noise will be reduced since nothing will really flow its direction. If the tripoint uses "kitty litter" or any kind of material that reduces RF by burning it has heat, it will have no affect on noise to enclosure from the air, no affect on noise coupling from L & N, and still provide another path for some extra common mode noise not within the bandwidth of whatever ferrite/piezo/shackra-crystals are deployed.
ON THE FLIP side, there are chances to introduce RF and give people the enhanced sound they want, that is described well on Tripoints website.
Btw the bonding straps/star provide a path for common mode noise that could divide more heavily across interconnects if the safety earth/bonding straps were not low impedance. So I've already covered that. But the damage is already done because the path to enclosure is through audio circuitry and such. My point being is safety earth is not a drain for common mode noise, it's a source. But you can make sure the path isn't even worse, across interconnects.
Audiocrack could answer some simple questions for us with a multimeter - if he's willing. It would take no real effort.
Wouldn’t have this many discussions in various threads if the magic box cost $1,000 because more people will take a leap of faith to buy and try it and likely be surprised how the sound of their system changes. Many will like it regardless of how it works. While some, likely very few, would think it sounds unnatural. But if I were the creator, I wouldn’t spend a few days to produce one box to get $500. I want a financially well to do life that gives me access to luxury like you all too. There goes the price. A thousand bucks a box and we will all be like Mike saying I don’t care how it works.
I hope you're telling that for everyone else's reference, because it's not for me since I specifically said the same thing in different terms. The impedance to the transformer feeding your house is obviously better than 25ohm.
So you half way repeat me... and then jump to the conclusion that Tripoints chord connections directly connect all the grounds coming into them to the wall? That is an extra loop, and potentially a bad one if it's on another AC line. But, the Tripoint wouldn't offer the improvements that they give if it was merely a bonding system - it's not. As stated by multiple members here, they have tried bonding and it didn't do anything for most of them, but grounding boxes did do something for them.
We also know that as an alternative path to ground (if so), they'll only see up to half (less really) of the potential noise on safety ground that the enclosure shields. The noise will divide itself across both the safety ground for the equipments IEC cord, and to a grounding box (if a path exists). But if the tripoint has a filter of any kind it'll be high impedance and no noise will be reduced since nothing will really flow its direction. If the tripoint uses "kitty litter" or any kind of material that reduces RF by burning it has heat, it will have no affect on noise to enclosure from the air, no affect on noise coupling from L & N, and still provide another path for some extra common mode noise not within the bandwidth of whatever ferrite/piezo/shackra-crystals are deployed.
ON THE FLIP side, there are chances to introduce RF and give people the enhanced sound they want, that is described well on Tripoints website.
Audiocrack could answer some simple questions for us with a multimeter - if he's willing. It would take no real effort.
Folsom the proof is in the listening. I experience all the improvements that all grounding boxes deliver and more. Like I said I'll put my money where my mouth is. The lower the resistance of the connections is what is important. I see that Tripoint uses larger cable now. The Tripoint works...sorry no magic..just basic electrical engineering,made to the audiophile needs. I salute Miguel the guy is a marketing genius and I mean that sincerely.
Wouldn’t have this many discussions in various threads if the magic box cost $1,000 because more people will take a leap of faith to buy and try it and likely be surprised how the sound of their system changes. Many will like it regardless of how it works. While some, likely very few, would think it sounds unnatural. But if I were the creator, I wouldn’t spend a few days to produce one box to get $500. I want a financially well to do life that gives me access to luxury like you all too. There goes the price. A thousand bucks a box and we will all be like Mike saying I don’t care how it works.
it's ok to know how stuff works, but it's beside the point......and.....it's more i'm not concerned about how stuff works. it will not bother me not to know. using our brains to assemble systems is part of the picture and there are objective things we have to deal with related to that. however; when our ears lead us a certain direction and it is suggested to us that we are delusional because this or that quasi scientific myopic dogma, then I choose ignore that distraction and follow my ears.
we all don't follow the same muse. I get my result, another path get's a different result. both can be just fine.
Folsom the proof is in the listening. I experience all the improvements that all grounding boxes deliver and more. Like I said I'll put my money where my mouth is. The lower the resistance of the connections is what is important. I see that Tripoint uses larger cable now. The Tripoint works...sorry no magic..just basic electrical engineering,made to the audiophile needs. I salute Miguel the guy is a marketing genius and I mean that sincerely.
No it's not. People wouldn't care at all about these if it were just a star ground. I've already explained how an extra star ground wouldn't do anything other than maybe make another loop by connecting it to safety earth; and technically you no longer have star ground once you add one of these, were it to provide bonding - and at least the Entreq is 100% certain not bonding. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Tripoint recommends connecting amps and pre/sources to different posts, right? (I know several others stipulate not to using binding posts combinations with amp and source on the same) There's no reason to do that if you're simply bonding.
I'm happy you get results you like - I believe your stereo does sound different based on what you do. But you're not an engineer yet. And these products do not work the way you think. Again, we have more than enough anecdotal proof. I firmly believe Microstrip is telling the truth that bonding didn't work for him, but the Nordost box did.
