TT upgrade, about time...

[tima]

You certainly seem knowledgeable about the 'tables. Are there many Linnies on WBF?

 

[daytona600]

Yes hear a full spec klimax each week at a friends house & it sounds terrible for a £20k deck
he has a full top of the range 6 figure Linn system , other friend has a 60year old 301 & it sounds better
as Garrard got the design nailed 1st time

Linn have gone to great lengths to reduce the sound of the table, they have engineered a better more rigid subchassis, much more precise motor and speed control
yes as a flawed design ^ 40years & dozens of upgrades will still not fix a flawed design
added more rigid parts & better speed control should have be done decades ago

Do any of the tables you happen to mention include the cartridge
no as people buying £20k will want to fit there own & & not a re-badge Lyra with a linn logo at a bit make up

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Certainly all very valid points to consider and this is exactly one major reason I will not engage in a TT costing over 10 grand. No way in my justification criteria is it worth spending that much to achieve truly refined sound. It's completely unnecessary. In terms of amplification and speaker systems, maybe it takes a little more to achieve the truth in sound or would I say a purer reproduction of recorded music, and I have certainly achieved that already.

However, my personal experiences in source components has been a vast journey of trial and error, having many fingers burnt... Now I'm extremely cautious to what the critics say, and I plan on a budget and stick to it, and so far it has paid dividends.

I do like the recommendation from Bonzo, with reference to the restored TD decks, they look absolutely stunning! The only minor issues are that I'm located down under and we don't have a Thorens service center or a representative. So that's a dead end for me but would have definitely fit my budget perfectly!

I also believe in diminishing returns, once you pass a certain threshold of expenditure. Just because it costs 100 grand and over must be good but when something minor happens to it, it practically craps itself. However, the little steam engine simply chugs along...

That little steam engine for me has always been the Rega decks. For as long as I know and have followed them, although they may not be labelled as true highend, they quite simply do just two things perfectly;
1. They reproduce fine music
2. They work for a very long time without any adjustments!

I just might settle for either the RP8 or planar 8, and call it a day!

In the mean time, I am about to audition a few line ups from Clear-audio and Project. One of my other good dealers (same place I purchased my CLX's from) highly recommended the Project XTension 9 and Xtension 10 evolution series TTs. Says he can fix a great deal once I've decided. So just to experience these and gain further knowledge, I'll certainly give them a listen.

I was very keen on the Linn, and going all the way to the top but I don't think I'd make the better half any happier, even if I extended my gym sessions and lost a few more kilos. After all I need to respect her and listen to her intuition, which 99.9% of the time has been correct!

She absolutely loves the CJ monoblocks and the other gear along with the CLX's and we both enjoy listening to music as well. So I feel this future upgrade should be a joint decision and not a one-way selfish one.

The other night when I happened to bring home the RP8 on trial, she heard it for a little while, during a Simon & Garfunkel LP. She said it sounds wonderful, and then questioned what more do I really need? I'm still trying to answer that, honestly...

As for now, I've changed my top three to this:
1. RP8 or planar 8 (best in value by far)
2. Music Hall 11.1 or Project Xtension 9 evolution series
3. Linn Majik

I know this list is technically more than 3 items but I'm also considering the options in gaining access to other models in a similar series line up.

The Project & Clear Audio auditions are happening on Tues, I'll be able to acquire a better perspective by then.

Cheers to all and enjoy your analog!
RJ

 

[bonzo75]

Hi Woof, for a Martin Logan system, put some money into the Allnic h3000. Your friend Kosta has an Allnic, and as heard at UK Paul's, I think it is fantastic for a Logan system. It adds density to panels, and supplements that strength of soundstage and layering. You need to rotate the recti.

For the table, for your budget best stick to your low priced ones or get a restored vintage. If not TD 124, there might be lenco and technics restores you will be able to find local. Add an FR 64s or SME 3012r depending on your choice. You can sell them off quite easily without loss when you choose to move on

 

[DaveyF]

Yes hear a full spec klimax each week at a friends house & it sounds terrible for a £20k deck
he has a full top of the range 6 figure Linn system , other friend has a 60year old 301 & it sounds better
as Garrard got the design nailed 1st time

Linn have gone to great lengths to reduce the sound of the table, they have engineered a better more rigid subchassis, much more precise motor and speed control
yes as a flawed design ^ 40years & dozens of upgrades will still not fix a flawed design
added more rigid parts & better speed control should have be done decades ago

Do any of the tables you happen to mention include the cartridge
no as people buying £20k will want to fit there own & & not a re-badge Lyra with a linn logo at a bit make up

Once again. ( this is so old) we have to understand the context of the poster. You state in an all Linn system!!!! Unfortunately, that is where the problem lies. The Linn speakers and amps have nowhere near the SQ capability of the table. Personally, i think the Linn speakers and amps border on mid-fi. So, what you are hearing/claiming...and unfortunately attributing to the table, is in fact the result of the rest of the upstream gear. Why did you think that what you heard should be laid at the feet of the LP12 Klimax??? The Garrard 301 is a very colored design, one that IMO shows its age ( like the tables that Ked is suggesting above). Not that the 301 isn't pleasant sounding, but compared to a full spec current LP12 Klimax, ( yes correctly set up and in the appropriate system), the coloration of the 301 is pretty easily heard.

Oh, i see you also conveniently forgot to mention that the Linn can also be had sans cartridge, arm, even as a basic entry level model with a cartridge and arm. ( called the Magik...or with just the basic table with none of the above for a significantly lower price!) Can you say that about the tables you are referring to...NO!

 

[DaveyF]

Certainly all very valid points to consider and this is exactly one major reason I will not engage in a TT costing over 10 grand. No way in my justification criteria is it worth spending that much to achieve truly refined sound. It's completely unnecessary. In terms of amplification and speaker systems, maybe it takes a little more to achieve the truth in sound or would I say a purer reproduction of recorded music, and I have certainly achieved that already.

However, my personal experiences in source components has been a vast journey of trial and error, having many fingers burnt... Now I'm extremely cautious to what the critics say, and I plan on a budget and stick to it, and so far it has paid dividends.

I do like the recommendation from Bonzo, with reference to the restored TD decks, they look absolutely stunning! The only minor issues are that I'm located down under and we don't have a Thorens service center or a representative. So that's a dead end for me but would have definitely fit my budget perfectly!

I also believe in diminishing returns, once you pass a certain threshold of expenditure. Just because it costs 100 grand and over must be good but when something minor happens to it, it practically craps itself. However, the little steam engine simply chugs along...

That little steam engine for me has always been the Rega decks. For as long as I know and have followed them, although they may not be labelled as true highend, they quite simply do just two things perfectly;
1. They reproduce fine music
2. They work for a very long time without any adjustments!

I just might settle for either the RP8 or planar 8, and call it a day!

In the mean time, I am about to audition a few line ups from Clear-audio and Project. One of my other good dealers (same place I purchased my CLX's from) highly recommended the Project XTension 9 and Xtension 10 evolution series TTs. Says he can fix a great deal once I've decided. So just to experience these and gain further knowledge, I'll certainly give them a listen.

I was very keen on the Linn, and going all the way to the top but I don't think I'd make the better half any happier, even if I extended my gym sessions and lost a few more kilos. After all I need to respect her and listen to her intuition, which 99.9% of the time has been correct!

She absolutely loves the CJ monoblocks and the other gear along with the CLX's and we both enjoy listening to music as well. So I feel this future upgrade should be a joint decision and not a one-way selfish one.

The other night when I happened to bring home the RP8 on trial, she heard it for a little while, during a Simon & Garfunkel LP. She said it sounds wonderful, and then questioned what more do I really need? I'm still trying to answer that, honestly...

As for now, I've changed my top three to this:
1. RP8 or planar 8 (best in value by far)
2. Music Hall 11.1 or Project Xtension 9 evolution series
3. Linn Majik

I know this list is technically more than 3 items but I'm also considering the options in gaining access to other models in a similar series line up.

The Project & Clear Audio auditions are happening on Tues, I'll be able to acquire a better perspective by then.

Cheers to all and enjoy your analog!
RJ

RJ,

If you can listen to the new Rega Planar 8, I think given what you have posted, that will seal the sale for you.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Yes, Davey agreed on the Planar 8. Mainly due to two reasons at this stage: 1. very budget conscious and 2. It will make peace with the Mrs...

I was thinking of putting the whole thing off, and attending to the other matters first, then looking at a full spec LP12 in due time, hence start off with the Linn Majik, since that also suits the budget quite well.

In your opinion between the two: Linn Majik and Planar 8, what do you reckon?

Bonzo: spot on with the Allnic, in fact this is why I like Kostas system so much and which was the first time of was totally transfixed not only on the CLX's but also on the TT. That Linn set up he has with the Allnic phonostage plus separate power supply gear, is just superb! For me, it has been my reference since, and really nothing I've heard so far can surpass it. Even the more costly TT's that go for 20 grand and upwards. Obviously it's not just the TT but also the rest of the gear that forms that synergy.

In terms of adding tonal density, soundstage depth & layering, I get all of that through CLX's being driven with CJ monoblocks. The preamp is the CT5 (upgraded to the SE version), the tube monoblocks have also been upgraded to the SE versions using KT120's. So now with tubes in line with pre-power amps, I really didn't want to add another tube component, such as the phonostage, mainly because I would have far too many tubes to maintain. Plus when they require changing, I wouldn't know head/tail which ones to change...

At one point I nearly went for the CJ TEA2 phonostage. It was offered to me at a very good price and I even paid a deposit. But then I had not given the Aria much time to settle in and really run at its optimal capacity, so I decided to hold onto it just for a little while longer until I was sure of changing the phonostage. Hence, I changed only the cartridge to a BM Glider, and now realized the full potential.

Eventually I would need to do a complete overhaul of the analog rig in order to get closer to that SOTA level of performance but for now I'm just enjoying the music.

I really cannot understand why anyone would down play a Linn TT, regardless of how they're set up. Perhaps the mediocre sound and so called "flawed design" is probably due to the quality of ancillary gear but what I've heard on the Linn setups so far has been nothing short of SOTA! Apart from Kostas set up, the last Linn TT's (all three of them) were based around the Naim Statement amplifiers, used in conjunction with the KEF Blades in one room, along with the Audio Analysis Omega's. The Linn's were so superb, I nearly walked out with one! It was extremely hard to refrain myself...

I said the same thing when I heard the CLX's properly set up, and then wanted to allow plenty of time to purchase a pair. I was aiming for 3-4 years down the line, until then enjoying my Ethos. Then all of a sudden a brand new pair carefully used by the dealer for demo's just happened to be sitting in a corner all covered up. The color was limited to just Black, which is quite stunning on its own, and so I went and inspected it, listened to it and walked out with the order closed!

I have my eyes set on the planar 8 but I also want to try to at least get into the Linn camp for what it's worth, and consider the possible upgrades along the way. So therefore anything that could easily surpass the planar 8 at its price point, I would certainly go for. Unfortunately at this stage I haven't come across anything as yet.
will see how it goes...

Cheers and big woof, woof!
RJ

 

[DaveyF]

Yes, Davey agreed on the Planar 8. Mainly due to two reasons at this stage: 1. very budget conscious and 2. It will make peace with the Mrs...

I was thinking of putting the whole thing off, and attending to the other matters first, then looking at a full spec LP12 in due time, hence start off with the Linn Majik, since that also suits the budget quite well.

In your opinion between the two: Linn Majik and Planar 8, what do you reckon?

Bonzo: spot on with the Allnic, in fact this is why I like Kostas system so much and which was the first time of was totally transfixed not only on the CLX's but also on the TT. That Linn set up he has with the Allnic phonostage plus separate power supply gear, is just superb! For me, it has been my reference since, and really nothing I've heard so far can surpass it. Even the more costly TT's that go for 20 grand and upwards. Obviously it's not just the TT but also the rest of the gear that forms that synergy.

In terms of adding tonal density, soundstage depth & layering, I get all of that through CLX's being driven with CJ monoblocks. The preamp is the CT5 (upgraded to the SE version), the tube monoblocks have also been upgraded to the SE versions using KT120's. So now with tubes in line with pre-power amps, I really didn't want to add another tube component, such as the phonostage, mainly because I would have far too many tubes to maintain. Plus when they require changing, I wouldn't know head/tail which ones to change...

At one point I nearly went for the CJ TEA2 phonostage. It was offered to me at a very good price and I even paid a deposit. But then I had not given the Aria much time to settle in and really run at its optimal capacity, so I decided to hold onto it just for a little while longer until I was sure of changing the phonostage. Hence, I changed only the cartridge to a BM Glider, and now realized the full potential.

Eventually I would need to do a complete overhaul of the analog rig in order to get closer to that SOTA level of performance but for now I'm just enjoying the music.

I really cannot understand why anyone would down play a Linn TT, regardless of how they're set up. Perhaps the mediocre sound and so called "flawed design" is probably due to the quality of ancillary gear but what I've heard on the Linn setups so far has been nothing short of SOTA! Apart from Kostas set up, the last Linn TT's (all three of them) were based around the Naim Statement amplifiers, used in conjunction with the KEF Blades in one room, along with the Audio Analysis Omega's. The Linn's were so superb, I nearly walked out with one! It was extremely hard to refrain myself...

I said the same thing when I heard the CLX's properly set up, and then wanted to allow plenty of time to purchase a pair. I was aiming for 3-4 years down the line, until then enjoying my Ethos. Then all of a sudden a brand new pair carefully used by the dealer for demo's just happened to be sitting in a corner all covered up. The color was limited to just Black, which is quite stunning on its own, and so I went and inspected it, listened to it and walked out with the order closed!

I have my eyes set on the planar 8 but I also want to try to at least get into the Linn camp for what it's worth, and consider the possible upgrades along the way. So therefore anything that could easily surpass the planar 8 at its price point, I would certainly go for. Unfortunately at this stage I haven't come across anything as yet.
will see how it goes...

Cheers and big woof, woof!
RJ

RJ,

Please see my post #28. I think that answers your question in paragraph 3.

I do wholeheartedly agree, the Linn LP12 gets a very bad rap these days. On other forums, I am regularly taken to task by folks who either have never heard the latest version of the table, or have heard it badly set up with the wrong ancillary gear ( ahem, daytona 600), or who owned it decades ago and still remember exactly how it sounds...compared to the new version ( which they have never even seen, never mind heard!)
I can tell you that I have 'AB'ed my LP12 Radikal D with its amazing WTA Black custom arm against some of the most highly thought after tables, and none of them has ever bested my LP12! Too many a'philes believe that the LP12 is past it, and that it is no good for one reason or another. Problem is they have gone on to other platforms that are multiples in price, and typically have NOT used their ears to decide if they are in fact getting an upgrade.
IMHO, the current LP12 Radikal Klimax is very close to SOTA, as you stated. I can only think of maybe one or two tables that I might prefer, and all of them are many multiples of the price of my Linn.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Well here it is Maties, marvinkay Moonee just had to make a move!

I received a call from my Rega dealer. It seems like the new planar 8 does not arrive in Aus until late March to May...

Further to the discussion, they had just one brand new RP8 in stock and were willing to do a trade-in deal with my older RP3, so I closed it and at an unbeatable value of less than $2800. I cannot state the exact price due to ethical reasons but I just couldn't resist.

I will pick up the RP8 on Tues with the fully fitted BM Glider and they are also adding the new Power supply unit that comes along with it. They were very impressed with the condition of my RP3, stating that it looks newer than most of their showroom models...

So the RP8 it is! That's good enough for me.
Many thanks for your updates and PM messages, I can look forward to another 10 years before any further upgrades. Then perhaps a Linn or Gyro deck would be in the making.

Cheers to all, and woofey woof woof!
Rj

 

[Ron Resnick]

Congratulations Big Woof! And the Glider is a great cartridge!

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Yes, that's a definite! In fact when I was using the BM Glider on the RP3, it elevated the performance to such a level it was marvelous!

Having auditioned the full Linn line up and a few others yet to audition, such as the Project and Clear Audio, reviewing the asking price from various dealers, got me thinking that I would need to cough out a whole lot more than I had initially thought.

Hence, my aim was somewhere around the 5 grand region, if at all less...

Then came across this fantastic offer for a trade-in as well as a brand new unit, not used, so I went for it!

Prior to that when I brought the RP8 for a home trial, it was so good I didn't want to let it go.
Cheers mate, RJ

 

[bonzo75]

Btw RJ might have decided already but one fantastic belt drive, suspended, ultra musical, that many in the UK love is the pink triangle anniversary, with SME V arm, goes used for under 4k GBP.

 

[TooCool4]

Btw RJ might have decided already but one fantastic belt drive, suspended, ultra musical, that many in the UK love is the pink fish anniversary, with SME V arm, goes used for under 4k GBP.

Don't you mean Pink Triangle Anniversary

 

[bonzo75]

Don't you mean Pink Triangle Anniversary

Oops

 

[mulveling]

Awesome, enjoy! Sounds like an excellent setup. Compliance and weight on that Benz should be good for the Rega arm. As others say, the Glider is a great little MC cart. I started my vinyl journey 12 years ago with an old SOTA Star and a new Benz Glider L2. I'm ever thankful I started at that level, rather than fiddling with more entry-level gear - and it's influenced my huge preference for vinyl that carries on today. That 1st table setup beat my Meridian G08 so badly, my digital rig building aspirations never really recovered.

Careful with that stylus/cantilever though! It feels like it sticks out a mile, and no stylus guard.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Yes, correct no stylus guard. In fact when the techie was doing the change over of carts, he asked where was the stylus guard and then apologized for losing it... Ha.

He has done such a marvelous job of positioning plus balancing all the elements perfectly, during the demo at the showroom before picking up, we compared the RP8 to the RP10 side by side, hardly a difference! I would say about 5% increase in smoothness and overall quietness. They were all very impressed with the BM Glider including the dealership owner, since none of them had actually heard the Glider fitted on any top end Rega's.

I'm extremely thrilled with the RP8 and the way it blends with the rest of the system, especially the CJ amplification and CLX's, just marvelous! This should serve well for now without having to worry about any further adjustments. From this point onwards a much higher end MC cart would probably be the most sensible upgrade but I will enjoy this rig for as long as it allows.

Big woof! RJ

 

[mulveling]

Very cool, RJ! I also had a superbly experienced guy do my first couple of setups. That's an important ingredient to analog success. I stayed with that Glider L2 almost 2 years, and enjoyed the hell out of it, before upgrading to an Ortofon Kontrapunkt "c" (now known as the Cadenza Bronze in its current iteration). My Glider still had plenty of great life in it; just hit by upgrade-itis. Then went almost a year with the "c"...and that's exactly when things got crazy. Within the span of a few months I went up to Ortofon Jubilee, then up to Windfeld MC. Then I heard my first Koetsu, an old 1980's Onyx Signature, was totally smitten, so by the end of that weekend I'd bought it. Followed it up shortly with a used Onyx Platinum and Jade Platinum that were listed on Audiogon. Definitely enjoy the Glider for a while! I still miss that Benz sound every now an then. I wouldn't mind having a Glider SL or Wood SL to play in the rotation.

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Delighted to report that the RP8 is settling in very very nicely. To such an affect that it has surpassed my digital playback system by a faaaar margin! Holy Spirit father the son & the holy glider! This thing is in a class of its own.

What struck me the most, like a bat out of hell, was the dynamics, resolution and impact, just extraordinary! Also the way the Glider handles those complex grooves and reproduces every minute detail flawlessly.
The transient attack and control is superb!

I am also a bit perplexed as to how this current humble analog rig out-performed the many lofty ones that I auditioned over the last 4 weeks! I don't want to mention those brands and gear but this thing surpasses all the ones I listened to with such finesse it's not even funny...

I guess it's also something to do with the rest of the system synergy, which has blended in supremely well, outstanding!

As I was at the dealership waiting to pick this up, the whole crew were seated and some standing listening to it, as they couldn't believe just how really fantastic this change was on the RP8. They were not even using their top quality gear from ARC or VTL, just a simple Rega power supply, connected to a Rocksan integrated amp, driving Monitor Audio Gold series speakers, it sounded marvelous!

Brought it home only yesterday, had a few listens, settled in nice but today after a good few more hours on it, what a rush of musicality!

Hats off to Rega, Roy Gandy and his team, they certainly know their stuff!
I highly recommend anyone who is looking for a serious level of refinement in performance from something very affordable, consider the RP8 or RP10, no disappointment there whatsoever!

Cheers to all and huge woofy woof woof!
RJ

 

[Big Dog RJ]

A few pics... Very very delighted with the RP8, bloody marvellous!
Cheers, RJ

 

[jadis]

The LP12 certainly is an old design, and that is precisely why I think the current and latest version of it is so excellent. The upgrades that Linn have engineered for the table have allowed it to keep up with ( and IME surpass)what the competitors are bringing to the market. As an example, the top of the line Radikal D power supply incorporates a superb low noise DC motor, along with exact speed control that, imho, surpasses most other speed control devices I have heard.....certainly at anywhere near the price asked.
The overall Linn LP12 platform can, again imo, easily better many other tables that get one thing or another right, but don’t take into consideration all of the aspects that the Linn engineers have worked on for all these years.To my ears, the proof is...as they say, in the pudding. Listen for yourself to a well set up LP12 Radikal Klimax, and I think the answer to your OP becomes very obvious.

Oh, all the rumors about the table falling out of tune etc., are just that...rumors, spread by either the competition, or folks who have never owned a properly set up Linn. The forums are littered with folks who have opinions on this table, more than just about any other piece of gear...only problem I have with them, is that they really have never experienced one of the Linn LP12 tables correctly set up in the first place; or...and this is more common, haven’t heard the table in decades, but still are happy to put in their 2cents.

First off, congratulations to the OP RJ Big Dog for his new Rega table. I'm a bit late for I just saw this thread about now and had a chance to digest the 'stories' about the Linn LP 12. Last month I contemplated on a whole turntable/arm/cartridge upgrade and went to reading and listening to what was narrowed down to 3 choices based on my likes and my budget. I have been a fan of the spring suspension ever since I got into this hobby in th mid 80s, and all of my tables thereafter were the suspended types - Ariston RD 80, VPI 19MKII and the Avid Diva I. The 3 tables that I was considering were the Linn LP 12 Sondek, Oracle Delphi 6, and the Avid Volvere. Of the 3, the Linn and the Oracle were sentimental favorites as I grew up reading and listening to them but never owned them, since the 80s. I took at look and listen at the local Linn showroom and learned a lot of things other than what I thought that the Linn Sondek was - the same old re-tooled model from the 70s. Fact is, they have THREE models - the Majik, Akurate, and the Klimax, and that they were all complete turntable systems with factory supplied tonearms and cartridges. Initially, I thought the Sondek was only the Majik but learning about the Akurate and Klimax took me days in reading and revisiting the showroom. In the end, I ordered a brand new factory sealed Akurate Sondek LP 12, and they came in 5 sealed boxes, the cartridge is the 6th box.

What happened next I was not prepared for. I thought that 2 hours would be tops to install the good old fashioned 'deck'. There must have been a thousand screws and small parts in those boxes that housed the main deck, the Kore subchassis, the Trampolin feet base, platter and subplatter with acrylic lid, and the Lingo IV power supply (itself comprised of like 4 or 5 parts - motor and pc board). 2 trained people from the dealer came in, with a dedicated steel rack from Scotland so that they could install the deck from the underside rather from the top. In all, 6 hours were consumed to fully set up the working deck and arm and cartridge, but they had to come back the next day for the fine tuning. Having some professional background in mechanical products, I sure am impressed with the engineering and design that went through this latest incarnation of the Sondek LP 12. The Majik can be upgraded part by part to the Akurate level or even the Klimax level and the differences of each upgrade like the standard subchassis to the KORE and KEEL subchassis can be read on the Linn webpage. And as Davey pointed out, the correct and proper setup is very important and Linn requires trained people to do so. There is no manual that came along, and looking at all the parts and screws and nuts, I do not think I can even do the proper set up in 3 days even with a manual. The result is an engineering masterpiece that one cannot imagine by simply looking at the finished deck as it looks just like its 70s grandfather from the outside.

I have found a very insightful video of how the Sondek was designed and engineered and it is something that vindicates my choice, and finally to satisfy a 3-decade long thirst to own this venerable brand and model.