Tweaks : A sensible investment or a waste of money?

RogerD

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Folsom

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Folsom you have doubted me....for a long time...come visit...you might learn something new.

I always believe you hear what you say, just not your conclusions that of why you hear what you hear.
 

RogerD

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Roger, I don't really understand what you are asking. What do you mean by my "original everyday system" and are you asking about clarity as a sonic attribute or in terms of effective communication?
I mean has the cheap cables effected the clarity of your system? Sorry for the confusion mea culpa.
 

RogerD

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I always believe you hear what you say, just not your conclusions that of why you hear what you hear.
Folsom....I base every improvement on single point grounding....something that Bell Labs did 70 years ago....If you remove corruption from the audio signal...the result is a system that is perfected. All systems are unique...
That’s my premise and actual experience....other statements of mine that are confusing are void. I’m keeping it simple. Thanks and good listening to you.
 

PeterA

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I mean has the cheap cables effected the clarity of your system? Sorry for the confusion mea culpa.

No, I do not think so. The cables sound different, and certain details are presented differently and perhaps highlighted, but overall resolution is very close. It is a question now of what sounds slightly more natural versus more hifi. I suspect different people hearing the same thing will have different observations and preferences.
 

Blackmorec

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This business of tweaking a system is a very interesting topic. Here are a few observations made over some 40 years of interest in hi-fi.

First and probably primary observation is that I found there to be 2 types or categories of upgrade or SQ improvements. The first brings an increase in particular qualities like bass or treble extension, sound stage depth, detail, air etc. The second removes listener fatigue and increases believability and listener involvement, for example less harshness, more balanced and uniform frequency response, less noise so decays can be better appreciated. I have also noticed that while the first may be initially thrilling, the listener soon assimilates the improvements and after a few weeks listener enjoyment is at the same level it was prior to the upgrade. The second may initially be more a sense of relief than thrilling, but the listener permanently experiences greater emotional response, enjoyment and satisfaction, so for me the second category of improvement is far more valuable than the first.

I have yet to own any hi-fi system that did not respond to changes in any number of set-up parameters....mains supply, interconnect quality, vibration control, power supply quality etc. So you can tweak till the cows come home and you will continue to hear improvements. So how do you decide when enough is enough? For me I use the above criteria to decide if a tweak is worthwhile or not. When a tweak resolves an issue I’ve identified which is spoiling my listening pleasure, I regard that tweak as worthwhile. When it simply add more of something, I know that within 2 weeks that ‘more’ will become the norm and whatever I spent on the improvement will deliver deminishing value.

So typically when I’m considering tweaks of any sort I usually have some goal in mind and that goal relates to removing some form of shortcoming that is disturbing my pleasure. Let’s take an example of harshness...,.let’s say I find my system slightly harsh. My tweaking will focus on resolving that harshness and I may try a number of different strategies like mains supply, vibration control or cabling to find the area that’s responsible for my discomfort. I may try a few things that add whatever qualities they do, but unless they contribute to solving my problem I don’t see the point in investing the money.

For sure this is an ongoing process as time is your enemy when it comes to hi-fi satisfaction. The longer you listen, the more likely you are to pick up shortcomings, but I’ve always found this to be a good way to guide my investments and ensure that I’m always listing to a satisfyingly good system.

For example, I have invested heavily in my mains supply but do not use conditioners or fancy fuses. I know they can enhance my system but I also know that what I’ve invested so far is convincing and pleasing me extremely well, so no need to spend more. Indeed my system has been sounding quite magical of late, so I’m convinced that most of my set-up measures are working well and therefore adequate. By not spending money on things like USB gadgets and speculative, untargeted upgrades I had some disposable income to spend on a new server with its improved EMI control, mother board optimization, vibration control, interface clocking and optimised power supplies. This upgrade delivers more of everything and solved a few problems I didn’t even know I had.
 

COF

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I have yet to own any hi-fi system that did not respond to changes in any number of set-up parameters....mains supply, interconnect quality, vibration control, power supply quality etc. So you can tweak till the cows come home and you will continue to hear improvements.

That's also what would be expected if the perceived effects of tweaking were due to imagination/bias vs something happening objectively (or a mix of both). Once you allow pure subjectivity to adjudicate results without controlling for imagination and perceptual bias, almost anything can be experienced, hence you get the "anything and everything makes a difference."

Most audiophiles don't want to hear that, though. We can see the effects of imagination and bias in the beliefs people form in countless other realms, and we can acknowledge how important bias control is in medical studies, but somehow our hobby is immune and it isn't a problem for us. ;-)
 

stehno

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This business of tweaking a system is a very interesting topic. Here are a few observations made over some 40 years of interest in hi-fi.

First and probably primary observation is that I found there to be 2 types or categories of upgrade or SQ improvements. The first brings an increase in particular qualities like bass or treble extension, sound stage depth, detail, air etc. The second removes listener fatigue and increases believability and listener involvement, for example less harshness, more balanced and uniform frequency response, less noise so decays can be better appreciated. I have also noticed that while the first may be initially thrilling, the listener soon assimilates the improvements and after a few weeks listener enjoyment is at the same level it was prior to the upgrade. The second may initially be more a sense of relief than thrilling, but the listener permanently experiences greater emotional response, enjoyment and satisfaction, so for me the second category of improvement is far more valuable than the first.

I find this response interesting because all of the tweaks and accessories I employ always address ALL parts of the playback presentation while simultaneously lessening listener fatigue, increases believability, etc. etc.. It's beyond my control or outside my scope to do otherwise.

When a change truly improves the playback presentation, we are not improving some effect of the playback presentation. Rather, and again assuming it's a real improvement, the tweak or accessory or upgrade or whatever addresses one or more causes (distortions) that masks percentages of the music across the entire frequency spectrum. Even thought improvements may seem more evident in one part of the spectrum than in other parts.

Your playback system has an established noise floor. If it's like every other playback system it has a rather raised noise floor. Every bit of music info processed but falls below this much raised noise floor remains inaudible at the speaker while much of the audible music info above the much raised noise floor is somewhat distorted. A single valid improvement simply lowers the noise floor so that a bit more previously inaudible music is now above the noise floor is is now audible. And that music info that was audible before and after the change is a bit cleaner or less distorted.

In other words, once a distortion enters the signal path all aspects are polluted and I'm unaware of any distortions discriminating between segments of the playback presentation. To me, that's like saying dirty gasoline negatively impacts cylinders 1, 3, 5, and 8 of my 8 cylinder motor.

I have yet to own any hi-fi system that did not respond to changes in any number of set-up parameters....mains supply, interconnect quality, vibration control, power supply quality etc. So you can tweak till the cows come home and you will continue to hear improvements. So how do you decide when enough is enough? For me I use the above criteria to decide if a tweak is worthwhile or not. When a tweak resolves an issue I’ve identified which is spoiling my listening pleasure, I regard that tweak as worthwhile. When it simply add more of something, I know that within 2 weeks that ‘more’ will become the norm and whatever I spent on the improvement will deliver deminishing value.

Is there even a playback system in existence that cannot be improved?

So typically when I’m considering tweaks of any sort I usually have some goal in mind and that goal relates to removing some form of shortcoming that is disturbing my pleasure. Let’s take an example of harshness...,.let’s say I find my system slightly harsh. My tweaking will focus on resolving that harshness and I may try a number of different strategies like mains supply, vibration control or cabling to find the area that’s responsible for my discomfort. I may try a few things that add whatever qualities they do, but unless they contribute to solving my problem I don’t see the point in investing the money.

Like you all of my tweaks and accessories also fall into the the electrical energy and mechanical energy mgmt sectors as well. That's good because that's where the vast majority of all distortions are found. And when there is positive improvement in these two areas, it just so happens harshness is one of the effects that is addressed. But then again, so is every other negative aspect.

For sure this is an ongoing process as time is your enemy when it comes to hi-fi satisfaction. The longer you listen, the more likely you are to pick up shortcomings, but I’ve always found this to be a good way to guide my investments and ensure that I’m always listing to a satisfyingly good system.

Yeah, it's kinda' like buying music. Does one ever really stop buying music?

For example, I have invested heavily in my mains supply but do not use conditioners or fancy fuses. I know they can enhance my system but I also know that what I’ve invested so far is convincing and pleasing me extremely well, so no need to spend more. Indeed my system has been sounding quite magical of late, so I’m convinced that most of my set-up measures are working well and therefore adequate. By not spending money on things like USB gadgets and speculative, untargeted upgrades I had some disposable income to spend on a new server with its improved EMI control, mother board optimization, vibration control, interface clocking and optimised power supplies. This upgrade delivers more of everything and solved a few problems I didn’t even know I had.

That's fine and based on the above I think we're pretty much on the same page.

But you should know that there's more music information in them thar recordings than what you currently hear. And it's for your listening enjoyment if you choose to continue, not anybody else's.
 

Blackmorec

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That's also what would be expected if the perceived effects of tweaking were due to imagination/bias vs something happening objectively (or a mix of both). Once you allow pure subjectivity to adjudicate results without controlling for imagination and perceptual bias, almost anything can be experienced, hence you get the "anything and everything makes a difference."

Most audiophiles don't want to hear that, though. We can see the effects of imagination and bias in the beliefs people form in countless other realms, and we can acknowledge how important bias control is in medical studies, but somehow our hobby is immune and it isn't a problem for us. ;-)

Here’s my thoughts: let’s take a cable as an illustration. Let’s say we change a DC power cable to a digital component and register an improvement that is in actual fact based solely on our imagination or perceptual bias. Isn’t it kind of amazing; in fact magical that we are able to imagine those exact same changes day in, day out? And isn’t it equally amazing that we are able to reverse the improvements we imagined should we remove the cable and more amazing still that we imagine the exact same changes if we swap the cable back in?
Further, how would we explain that some changes we make in the expectation of improving our system don’t? We put them in, hear the effect and don’t like it. How does that fit into the model.....changes where we clearly expect an improvement and get the opposite?

I recently bought a new digital server that delivered magical results. I then read from many users that adding a reclocker to the USB output brought even greater improvements, so I got the recommended model, along with better USB cables and the manufacturer’s dedicated power supply. On installation I heard some improvements but the magic was gone. I’d read literally dozens of glowing reports on the device so I put it down to the need to burn-in. After 400 hours the magic was still absent and it went back to the distributor. What expectation bias did was make me waste 400 hours. What my ears did was make me send it back.

The problem with hi-fi is that in my view, many of the changes we hear are down to very small changes to a very complex signal that are psychoacoustically very important but way too subtle and well buried within the signal too measure, assuming we even knew what to measure. Blind listening tests may be the answer but again can get very confusing when using complex musical signals
Thanks anyway for your thoughts....interesting conversation
 
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Blackmorec

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But you should know that there's more music information in them thar recordings than what you currently hear. And it's for your listening enjoyment if you choose to continue, not anybody else's.[/QUOTE]
Yes for sure you’re right. But here’s a thought. Let’s say you implement a new component and it results in the resolution of more musical information. The component hasn’t added this information, it was there in the signal before, just that it wasn’t resolved. And if it was there before but unresolved, its by definition being combined with other parts of the signal, as a form of distortion. So every time we do anything that resolves more information we are at the same time reducing distortion.....not ‘noise’ per se but unresolved information that distorts closely related parts of the signal.
 

COF

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Hi, thank you as well for the thoughtful response. It's always discouraging that simply investigating these questions can raise so much heat and disparagement. So it's nice to have a civil conversation.

Please keep in mind: my answers do not entail the claim that all tweaks are bogus or that you have not in fact heard real physical changes in the sound of your system with certain tweaks. My only point is that there are frusterating variables introduced by our fallible brains, such that it can be hard....merely on subjective grounds...to winnow out error from reality.

Here’s my thoughts: let’s take a cable as an illustration. Let’s say we change a DC power cable to a digital component and register an improvement that is in actual fact based solely on our imagination or perceptual bias. Isn’t it kind of amazing; in fact magical that we are able to imagine those exact same changes day in, day out? And isn’t it equally amazing that we are able to reverse the improvements we imagined should we remove the cable and more amazing still that we imagine the exact same changes if we swap the cable back in?

It is no more amazing than the effects found in any other domain. Give people a placebo pill and they will find themselves feeling better when they take it; less well when they don't take it.

I had a selection of high end AC cables at one point and was testing them out. I struggled to hear any difference with all but one of them. One of them (the most expensive) seemed to distinctly change the sound of my system - it seemed to become *obviously* smoother, darker, richer, more easeful and lush. In fact, it "changed" my system so much I had trouble deciding if I liked the effect or not. I'd put the cable in ...the sound changed. Take the cable out. The sound changed back to the 'usual' sound. It tracked just as you suggest above "magically."

So I had a friend help me blind test that expensive AC cable against the cheap stock power cables. Guess what? When I didn't know which cable I was listening to, the sonic effects I thought I heard when sighted disappeared! What seemed an obvious sonic signature was just gone and I could detect no difference between the audiophile cable and the cheap power cord.

It really was a personal lesson in the power of sighted bias. And when you keep getting these lessons....I've blind tested a number of items, cables etc....it can help put things in perspective :) That's not to say blind testing automatically invalidates any sighted results. I've blind tested items where I could easily detect the characteristics I heard when sighted. But...the vexing thing is...it can be hard to tell which are the physical audible differences vs biased perception. ESPECIALLY in the realm of very subtle sonic differences.

Further, how would we explain that some changes we make in the expectation of improving our system don’t? We put them in, hear the effect and don’t like it. How does that fit into the model.....changes where we clearly expect an improvement and get the opposite?

It is a very, very common intuition about bias effects that, if bias is a factor, we will only hear what we expect to hear. The Expectation Bias.
And this intuition is used constantly as validation for claims about tweaks, cables etc. "I DIDN'T expect to hear X, yet I heard X, therefore the effect can't be due to bias or misconception, and must be real!" You'll see this so often on audio forums, and in audiophile reviews.
in fact, note how often you will see exactly this claim made EVERYWHERE dubious phenomena is claimed. Every single fringe belief and pseudo-science contains devotees who claim to have been skeptical but were "convinced by experience" that the phenomenon is real, whether you are talking psychic phenomenon, to palm reading, astrology, crystal healing, alternative medicines, magic energies, etc. That this intuition is so common explains the fact that one of the most common sales slogans is "I was a skeptic! UNTIL I tried it...!!!"

The problem is it's based on a false understanding of how our perception and bias works. There are many more ways in which we fall in to error that are not simply "expectation bias." To give an idea of the range of biases we have, take a look at this list:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases

cont'd....
 

COF

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So back to hearing something that goes against your expectation.

While the expectation bias is a real bias effect, it's not the only one in operation. You don't have to have an expectation either way. The mere act of listening for a difference can produce the perception of a difference. Changing our attention can change our perception. You may be listening to that flute in the background in a way you aren't normally listening to it. Your subjective experience can change as you pay attention to various things in the sound. This is proven by the fact you can often test people by asking them to detect or describe any difference they hear between X and Y. Often they will describe differences they have detected...even though you what they were hearing was the exact same thing. You find this in blind testing of many cables, for instance: you don't have to switch the cable at all, but the mere fact people *believe* something has switched is enough, even "unconsciously" to affect the way they listen and then they think they are hearing two different cables. (And plenty of studies have shown similar perceptual phenomena).

Or...maybe you weren't even trying to listen for differences at all! Maybe you just put in a new cable, didn't even go about trying to listen for a difference, but a week later you just happen to notice "Wow, that trumpet sure seems to be a bit smoother, more subtly rendered than I ever remember it!" Then you turn your attention to the sound and uncover more sonic differences. The natural move in the audiophile mind is to presume one is hearing some objective change in the system, and then to link it to whatever piece they changed: "Must be that new cable I put in! Wasn't even expecting it, but it really affected the sound of my system!"

But, again, our mood, mind, brain, perception alters with time, situations, even our seating position when listening. I've listened to Rush my whole life, yet on one day I can notice something Neil Peart was doing in a track that I hadn't perceived that way before. Or I can notice something here or there in the sound, instruments, timbre, that I am noticing for the first time. The track isn't changing; my attention, my perception....naturally and for various reasons...change. Same with noticing certain qualities in any part of the sound. Sometimes my system actually doesn't sound that impressive. Other days...in other mindsets.... WOW! The audiophile mindset is usually to leap to the conclusion that the alteration is happening objectively, in his equipment, not in the huge number of ways his brain can alter experiences.



I recently bought a new digital server that delivered magical results. I then read from many users that adding a reclocker to the USB output brought even greater improvements, so I got the recommended model, along with better USB cables and the manufacturer’s dedicated power supply. On installation I heard some improvements but the magic was gone. I’d read literally dozens of glowing reports on the device so I put it down to the need to burn-in. After 400 hours the magic was still absent and it went back to the distributor. What expectation bias did was make me waste 400 hours. What my ears did was make me send it back.


On a similar note: Not that long ago I switched to a new music server system. I switched from using iTunes/Mac to stream my lossless ripped CDs and Tidal to my Benchmark DAC, to a Rraspberry Pi/Logitech server. This had nothing to do with sound quality and I had no expectations of any sound quality change. It was purely that I was sick of being stuck using iTunes and my mac.

However, when I made the switch...damned if I didn't notice the sound seemed to have changed. And not for the better! My system seemed to have taken on a slightly pinched, harder, and very slightly brighter quality. It was putting me off a little bit and very frusterating because I hadn't expected this and I really wanted to use the Raspberry Pi server. But I wasn't going to keep using it if it changed the sound in the way it seemed to be doing.

So....blind testing to the rescue! I had a friend help me blind-shoot out between the two servers, randomized switching etc (luckily my server is in a separate room from my listening room). Well, just like that AC cable experience I detailed earlier, once I didn't know which I was hearing, the sonic cues of "brighter, harder, pinched" etc just seemed absent. I simply could not reliably detect any difference between the iTunes/Mac server and the Raspberry Pi....as should be the case technically. Whew! So, I went with the Pi server and afterward my worry had been dispelled it never really sounded different anymore - my system sounds as it ever did.

Now, again, this does not mean all sonic differences are imaginary! I have for instance done blind shoot outs between some CD players and DACs where I was positive I was hearing differences - subtle differences! but distinct enough. And indeed in blind tests I easily discerned between the gear. So blind testing doesn't just wipe away all real sonic differences.

But what you learn is that it just not so easy to distinguish our sighted bias from real sonic effects. It's annoying....but reality isn't here to please us.

There's no reason any audiophile has to blind test a single thing! Nobody is forced to. But, IF we really want to be sure, and get rigorous about warranting our confidence and figuring out what is going on, then we'd want to take the problem of sighted bias seriously.


The problem with hi-fi is that in my view, many of the changes we hear are down to very small changes to a very complex signal that are psychoacoustically very important but way too subtle and well buried within the signal too measure,

That is begging the question at hand: The claim that we are hearing things that can't be measured. First, we have the problem of trying to discern whether we are hearing something or not - the variables of sighted bias as discussed above. Then there is the fact that the very reason many of our instruments, including those used to test signals, were invented because of the limitations of our senses in the first place! Instruments can reliably detect supersonic frequencies; you don't detect them. Instruments can pick up all sorts of distortion and changes - in amps, cables, speakers etc - that we can not audibly perceive. So I would hardly be quick to just accept the claim "I'm hearing things that are beyond the ability of instruments to detect," where normally the case is the other way around.

All that said, I certainly would agree with the idea that even very subtle changes in sound can have large subjective consequences!

Cheers!
 

stehno

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So back to hearing something that goes against your expectation.

.........

That is begging the question at hand: The claim that we are hearing things that can't be measured. First, we have the problem of trying to discern whether we are hearing something or not - the variables of sighted bias as discussed above. Then there is the fact that the very reason many of our instruments, including those used to test signals, were invented because of the limitations of our senses in the first place! Instruments can reliably detect supersonic frequencies; you don't detect them. Instruments can pick up all sorts of distortion and changes - in amps, cables, speakers etc - that we can not audibly perceive. So I would hardly be quick to just accept the claim "I'm hearing things that are beyond the ability of instruments to detect," where normally the case is the other way around.

All that said, I certainly would agree with the idea that even very subtle changes in sound can have large subjective consequences!

Cheers!

Overall, I enjoyed your post but comments like your conclusion above always raise red flags for me. Especially in this current era of high-end audio where so many seem to have fallen in love with measurements and measuring instruments. Some have even gone so far as to believe that measurements are the new holy grail.

For example. You say many instruments were invented because of the limitation of our senses. But you neglect to mention that these same instruments have limitations that fail us and in such cases we must resort to our senses. I'm reminded of a measurements thread in another forum a few years back where 2 renowned component designers both claimed their professionally-calibrated sensitive measuring routinely failed them when their own ears and those of their colleague could easily discern audible changes.

IMO, sensitive measuring instruments are really not much different than our sensitive components in that if our components can suffer greatly from various distortions, I have to believe it is highly likely that measuring instruments suffer from the same various distortions. And if that's true, then I also believe that potentially all types of sensitive instruments are operating potentially closer to their base performance levels rather than their optimal levels.

Lastly, it seems common knowledge that they have yet to invent a measuring instrument to discern levels of sound quality. So I think it important to realize that measuring instruments, like our senses, also have very clear limitations. But it doesn't seem many like that idea.

Admittedly, I put zero stock in measurements and in those who cling to them but that's a whole nuther thread.
 

COF

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Overall, I enjoyed your post

Thanks, that's nice to hear.

I'd like to point out that I am myself not particularly "measurement obsessed" and I used my own ears to audition equipment, speakers especially. At the same time, I understand the general nature of sound empiricism, and why science arose and operates as it does, and I just can't pretend that audio is some field of endeavour magically excepted from the same concerns regarding variables, human bias etc, that operate everywhere else. The very same red flags that arise in phenemona like astrology, palm reading, alternative medicine and any number of psuedosciences appear in high end audio. The purely subjective approach found in much of high end audio reviewing and consuming is why so much pseudo-science manages to arise in the hobby.



For example. You say many instruments were invented because of the limitation of our senses. But you neglect to mention that these same instruments have limitations that fail us and in such cases we must resort to our senses. I'm reminded of a measurements thread in another forum a few years back where 2 renowned component designers both claimed their professionally-calibrated sensitive measuring routinely failed them when their own ears and those of their colleague could easily discern audible changes.

That begs the question though, of whether those gentleman were hearing what they thought they did. It's like saying "Given that I DO know from sighted tests there is a sonic difference, I know the blind test was wrong because the results show I couldn't reliably identify a difference."

Of course the point of blind tests is that we know many people mistakenly claim differences in sighted situations where there are none. For instance, change the label on the same wine bottle and many people will perceive they are tasting a different wine. And you can simply let people think they are trying to discern between two different cables and they'll "hear" differences between the same cable.

I don't know the specifics of the anecdote you are relating, but in principle, as I said, it begs the question at hand.

IMO, sensitive measuring instruments are really not much different than our sensitive components in that if our components can suffer greatly from various distortions, I have to believe it is highly likely that measuring instruments suffer from the same various distortions. And if that's true, then I also believe that potentially all types of sensitive instruments are operating potentially closer to their base performance levels rather than their optimal levels.

That sounds like you trying to think about a discipline - e.g. electronics and testing equipment - that aren't educated in, am I right?

Don't you think those who created test instruments may have known something about getting it right? Basically the case you just made seems to say "instruments aren't reliable." But...they are. They produce reliable results all the time. That's why you are able to type your reply on your computer and I'm able to read it. When instruments aren't reliable...generally this is found out.

I don't have an education in electronics or engineering btw. So I have to rely on looking at what people with the right expertise and education have to say; observe the debates, see which side seems to make the most sense. Unfortunately, I often find the side in audiophiledom defending the tweakier aspects of the hobby to produce very obviously weak and suspicious arguments.

Lastly, it seems common knowledge that they have yet to invent a measuring instrument to discern levels of sound quality.

That's not the case. There are many ways in which sound quality can be affected by various distortions, for instance, which are very measurable. If you introduce enough intermodulation distortion (easily measurable) you can certainly predict the sound quality will suffer. That goes for any number of ways in which sound can be manipulated in measurable ways. (I manipulate sound all the time in my work in post production sound).

Also, are you aware of the long, pioneering work of Floyd Tool, Sean Olive and Harman Kardon et al? There are decades of scientifically verified results correlating speaker measurements to perceived sound quality. They can predict with great success which speakers, in blind tests, will be rated high for sound quality and lower.

This idea of sound quality being some unmeasurable dimension is a shibboleth in high end audio forums, but it's just not true. Not EVERYTHING has been correlated perfectly. But a lot has, and there's no reason we should ignore this.

Admittedly, I put zero stock in measurements and in those who cling to them but that's a whole nuther thread.

That is a sentiment most often expressed by people who don't know much...or enough....about measurements. And how they correlate to audibility and sound quality. In all likelihood, someone experienced in correlating measurements to perception, like Floyde Tool, could predict which speaker you will prefer if only left to your ears, and not your eyes, to decide.

Now...that's true because I spoke of likelihoods - high statistical likelihood. And not everything has of course been mapped between measurements and our perception. The problem is, when people really want to remain subjective, they will leverage the fact that not everything is known to "therefore NOTHING relevent to my audio experiences is known."

We as consumers don't have the luxury to turn everything in to a well controlled lab experiment, even if we wanted to. So I, like you, will be auditioning speakers mostly based on getting an audition of them. But I can do this, not bother basing my own choices on measurements, while acknowledging that there IS a lot known about sound quality through measurements. And that there are plenty of dubious claims floating around in high end audio.

Cheers.
 
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Blackmorec

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As usual with posts regarding measurements, further explanation is necessary.

Let’s first make it clear that these days pretty much anything in our physical World is measurable. As the saying goes, if we can hear it, we can measure it, but is that really true?Instruments are more sensitive than our ears, more precise than our ears , more reproducible than our ears, more standardised than our ears, more specific than our ears, have a wider range than our ears, so instruments should be able to beat our ears hands down, right? Wrong, because there’s a problem. Instruments are measuring physical attributes,....frequency, voltage, impedance, noise, distortion etc. Etc Our ears don’t measure anything. They are simply detectors. They detect sound pressure waves and convert them into nerve impulses, so our ears are actually transducers, detectors. In fact it’s our brain that does all the signal interpretation, using some very fancy hardwired algorithms that include frequency based pattern recognition, differential phase, amplitude and timing analysis, first wavelength preservation with time and frequency based signal summing etc. Do instruments have anything like these algorithms? No. So we have to find surrogates. Sometimes we can do this successfully....for coloration, frequency accuracy would suffice, harshness could perhaps be derived from IMD or jitter values, but what of the multitude of other qualities. How do we measure ability to portray rhythmic drive, timing, soundstage or emotion. We can’t. In fact instruments can evaluate physical values very accurately, but they don’t equate very well to a lot of what we hear, which is derived from a host of complex signals. In order to measure what we hear would require huge amounts of signal extraction and complex algorithms to combine those extracted signals into the derivative signals that is human hearing.
So can we really measure what we hear? No, not even close. The best we can do is to provide a few surrogates that we believe may have an impact on and roughly represent what we hear.
 

spiritofmusic

Well-Known Member
Jun 13, 2013
14,625
5,432
1,278
E. England
Blackmorec, I've installed four changes in my system that have unequivocally upped the ante.

Stacore pneumatic platform under my tt, RevOPods footers under my Zus w down firing subs, Tubulus Argentus DB25 umbilical cable from Nat tube pre to it's SS psu, and just recently the Sablon Reserva IC w Bocchino connector.

I have no idea how you'd measure the changes here. All I can say is that over the 12 months of installing these changes, my system which never majored on transparency, microdynamics, air, and unforced detail, has gone on to be a lot better in these areas, while losing none of its core strengths.
 

stehno

Well-Known Member
Jul 5, 2014
1,592
458
405
Salem, OR
As usual with posts regarding measurements, further explanation is necessary.

Let’s first make it clear that these days pretty much anything in our physical World is measurable. As the saying goes, if we can hear it, we can measure it, but is that really true?Instruments are more sensitive than our ears, more precise than our ears , more reproducible than our ears, more standardised than our ears, more specific than our ears, have a wider range than our ears, so instruments should be able to beat our ears hands down, right? Wrong, because there’s a problem. Instruments are measuring physical attributes,....frequency, voltage, impedance, noise, distortion etc. Etc Our ears don’t measure anything. They are simply detectors. They detect sound pressure waves and convert them into nerve impulses, so our ears are actually transducers, detectors. In fact it’s our brain that does all the signal interpretation, using some very fancy hardwired algorithms that include frequency based pattern recognition, differential phase, amplitude and timing analysis, first wavelength preservation with time and frequency based signal summing etc. Do instruments have anything like these algorithms? No. So we have to find surrogates. Sometimes we can do this successfully....for coloration, frequency accuracy would suffice, harshness could perhaps be derived from IMD or jitter values, but what of the multitude of other qualities. How do we measure ability to portray rhythmic drive, timing, soundstage or emotion. We can’t. In fact instruments can evaluate physical values very accurately, but they don’t equate very well to a lot of what we hear, which is derived from a host of complex signals. In order to measure what we hear would require huge amounts of signal extraction and complex algorithms to combine those extracted signals into the derivative signals that is human hearing.
So can we really measure what we hear? No, not even close. The best we can do is to provide a few surrogates that we believe may have an impact on and roughly represent what we hear.

Well said, Blackmorec. ...I think. :)
 

COF

Well-Known Member
Sep 29, 2017
152
126
148
Wrong, because there’s a problem. Instruments are measuring physical attributes,....frequency, voltage, impedance, noise, distortion etc. Etc Our ears don’t measure anything. They are simply detectors.

This is something of a red herring because it's somewhat semantic in terms of what we are talking about. If what you mean by "our ears" equates to "our hearing" then certainly our hearing mechanism "measures" quantity and characteristics of sound. Yes our brain is involved of course, but it's involved in interpreting measurements from devices we create as well.


Do instruments have anything like these algorithms?

Yes. Some do. Complex software is now part and parcel of many instruments used to analyze sound.

But, again, instruments aren't detached out there in the world operating on their own; the point is we are part of the process - we process the information from instruments.

How? By finding correlations between what the instruments detect, and what we experience.

Take a compressor. You can dial the values down and up using a piece of music, observe how you perceive the change in sound quality, and then understand the relation of the instruement's values (compressor) to what you hear. This isn't magic.


Sometimes we can do this successfully....for coloration, frequency accuracy would suffice, harshness could perhaps be derived from IMD or jitter values, but what of the multitude of other qualities. How do we measure ability to portray rhythmic drive, timing, soundstage or emotion. We can’t.

You have acknowledged we can measure what we hear in some instances, but now seek to raise examples that "can't" be measured. I think your examples are problematic in that they are somewhat mushy to begin with, and mash together various subjects. Now, I'm not saying that everything you just described HAS already been demarcated scientifically. But that's different from your apparent claim that none of it has been correlated with measurements...or that it CAN'T be measurable.

It appears you are making the leap from "I don't know how these things can be measured" to presuming therefore "No One Knows How To Measure These Things."

Take soundstage. In fact, there is quite a lot known, in technical terms, about how a soundstage is created. The size and acoustic characteristics of a hall are measurable, as are the sound characteristics of, say, a symphony placed somewhere specifically within that hall.
Engineers choose microphone for known (measurable) characteristics such as pick up patterns, frequency response etc, which together with placement (measurable) helps them achieve the soundstage they wish to capture - or manipulate. The same goes for mixing. You pan something more to the left, that's where it will appear in the soundstage. You decrease it's amplitude, add certain types of processing, e.g reverb, and you can send it more in to the apparent distance. None of this is done supernaturally - these are done by altering technical values that are measurable. I manipulate sound, and soundscapes all day long (right now I'm creating a scene that takes place in a large interior train station in the early 1900s). I'm manipulating the scale of the sound, placement of sources etc just as I want via various technical manipulations, inculding reverb plug ins, volume changes, frequency alterations, stereo widener plug-ins, you name it. Again...not magic...if the values I'm changing to achieve this weren't measurable in the first place, this technology wouldn't exist! The same goes for the fact that the apparent scale and imaging of surround sound clearly follows measurable and predictable parameters in our perception. Otherwise all the various sound enhancing modes in surround receivers, or even Dolby Atmos, Auro etc, couldn't have been designed in the first place!

Then there is playback: Again, there are many things known about what type of measurable phenomena contribute to image specificity, spaciousness, etc. That's why for instance you'll see in John Atkinson's Stereophile speaker measurement sections, information such as the lateral response graphs and JA telling you: "But note in fig.5 the evenness of the contour lines, something that always correlates with stable, precise stereo imaging."

Various forms of reflections in a room - sidewall, rear, ceiling, floor etc are known to affect perceived imaging and spaciousness. Floyd Tool documents all sorts of these effects in his literature. He also shows how the science correlates many speaker measurements to soundstaging in the sense that certain measurable characteristics, e.g. flat amplitude, even dispersion, and low resonant mode (in drivers or cabinets) predict a speaker will "disappear" as a sound source better, and you won't get some instruments and sounds clustering in to the speaker.

Now, does this mean that the absolutely exact, precise experience you have of a soundstage from a certain speaker in a certain room is describable from measurements to the precision you'd want it? Maybe, maybe not. But asking for total precsion is one thing; the claim that nothing about it is measurable and predictable via measurements is another.

As to things like "rhythmic drive, timing, soundstage or emotion"....that all depends on how precise you can actually be about those. One can't measure mushy ideas. But then, if an idea is mushy to begin with, we can't say it's a specific "thing" that can't be measured to begin with. Even audiophiles seem confused about what things like "PRAT" are or if it's even a reasonable concept (I've seen many debates).

As to what might create the sense of "rhythmic drive/timing" if we take that to mean, say, a snappy sense of pace vs a more sluggish, slow-sounding pace, then if two different music signals alter these perceptions, it would be measurable. Some candates can be things like bass frequency extension, along with measurable attributes of the sound in the room like frequency evenness, existence of room nodes in the bass region, ringing in the bass region etc. There are plenty of instances in which removing bulges, bloating and ringing in the bass region have been perceived as clearing up "sluggish" bass and improving the sense of 'quickness and timing" in the bass. Room correction software included in subwoofers, or full blown software systems, calculate and fix such issues.

Throwing in terms like "emotion" muddies the waters further. "emotion" in terms of the listener obviously isn't encoded in the musical signal so that would be the wrong place to look for it. But in principle "emotional response" can be measured. It's done all the time in science, in the biological, behavioral and social sciences (usually via self-report, and other methods). You could in principle study people's emotional responses to music by altering some parameters - either in the source, or changing speakers or whatever - to see if there is a correlation to be found.


Anyway....much of that is one giant distraction from the fact that we'd want to first have a way of being sure someone is perceiving a real thing in the first place! Blind testing is a good way of aiding confidence in this respect.

Cheers.
 
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gilles13

Well-Known Member
Dec 17, 2015
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south of France
I have a lot of tweaks on my system and when I got a subtle change, I ask my wife who has a very good hear and was singing in a classical choral. She don't see the change I do, don't know if it's s cable... and at the end I ask for the differences she heard without saying anything and in many years only one time we disagree each other.
So even with blind test you must hear the differences.
 

Barry2013

VIP/Donor
Oct 12, 2013
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Essex UK
Thanks for a very interesting post COF.
It reminded me of an unsuccessful buy some years ago. I bought an Esoteric XO3SE CD/SACD player without having heard it in my home. The build quality was outstanding and a huge amount of work had gone into its development. But I just could not live with its sound. It was cold and analytical and not at all musical sounding. I tried to improve it by adding a DCS Verona word clock which did yield some improvement, but not enough and I moved on to a DCS Puccini which was much more enjoyable. I have stayed with DCS and now have a three box Scarlatti which I am delighted with.
I recount this experience but really do not know whether the measurement available to us for these two manufacturers products explain the difference. They may to some extent, but as I recall none of the reviews I read of the Esoteric identified measurements which compromised its reviewed sound quality.
Since then I have been much more inclined to trust my ears and my greater experience of assessing sound quality.
This is not in anyway a criticism of your post which I think is very good and informative, but rather an example of the complexity of assessing sound quality.
 

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