Upcoming Nagra turntable

[Zeotrope]

I agree with you that his video and reasoning is full of biase. His comment on bent drive is certainly wrong. I only coded his part on changes on stylus drag during play. That part I agree with him.

Only if the motor and drive system lacks the torque required to play at a constant speed. This has nothing to do with the drive system. Absolutely a belt drive can maintain a constant speed! To say otherwise is a complete joke.
This is why I cannot stand Jonathan Weiss and OMA -- when you portray yourself as an industry leader yet spew so much BS - it's disgusting.

To make a blanket claim as he did that "ALL" belt drive turntables will slow down when encountering a loud passage is ridiculous. We can see in Nagra's case that they have a dual motor tensioned system - it's certainly not slowing down or speeding up depending on what is in the grove. Let's also remember that the grove is causing the stylus to move which is absorbing the energy and translating it to sound. Honestly, not everything the man says is laughable, but because (at least) 50% is, it's difficult to know what to listen to.

 

[TLi]

Only if the motor and drive system lacks the torque required to play at a constant speed. This has nothing to do with the drive system. Absolutely a belt drive can maintain a constant speed! To say otherwise is a complete joke.
This is why I cannot stand Jonathan Weiss and OMA -- when you portray yourself as an industry leader yet spew so much BS - it's disgusting.

To make a blanket claim as he did that "ALL" belt drive turntables will slow down when encountering a loud passage is ridiculous. We can see in Nagra's case that they have a dual motor tensioned system - it's certainly not slowing down or speeding up depending on what is in the grove. Let's also remember that the grove is causing the stylus to move which is absorbing the energy and translating it to sound. Honestly, not everything the man says is laughable, but because (at least) 50% is, it's difficult to know what to listen to.

OMA videos are sales talk and should be look at accordingly. I don't feel offended. There are many TV advertisements out there which go way off scale.

The concept of inconsistent stylus drag is valid. The drag is higher with loud passage. The thing is, similar situation is happening in the cutting lache in master production. The drag on the lacquer is not constant. The cutting stylus moves in larger amplitude in loud passage hence causing more drag on the master. The master disc will slow down momentarily, however in a microscopic way.

If you buy this concept, as Mr Weiss do, the best reproduced sound in vinyl is not by absolute constant speed. The best sound is made with the correct reproduction of wobble that occured in cutting lache.

 

[Zeotrope]

Very interesting perspective @TLi - especially the last part. I value your opinion.
I suppose I should let it go re: my feelings towards OMA/Weiss. The problem is that I hate when companies espouse false narratives. It brings down the entire industry.
Competition is great and there are many things that OMA has done very well - why not focus on them without lying?
Anyway, who cares - astute buyers will see right through it, and for the others it’s more humorous than anything else I suppose.

What’s interesting about the science and art of TT design is that it’s really more about art than science. The voicing of the table/tonearm/cartridge matters more so than with other sources. Case in point: you can have the most powerful torque motor available that doesn’t change speed regardless of what you play on it; but if the lathe changed speed when it cut the lacquer, then you’ve actually added distortion, as you noted.

 

[Zeotrope]

Some test results here:

 

[Holmz]

When I saw the single person wearing the mask. I was expecting the subtitles to say that system actual had the musicians in the room.

 

[mtemur]

I couldn’t see any results. They didn’t show the numbers.

 

[Zeotrope]

From an Artemis SA-1 Review, this should apply to the Nagra TT:
…for a belt the Artemis SA-1 uses the unique substance of 025-inch magnetic recording tape. The use of magnetic tape allows for the "belt" to be routed past a tensioning lever/pulley that is designed to reduce both slippage and minimize the side thrust on the platter. This threading method also prevents motor vibrations from reaching the platter because they absorbed by the suspended pulley.

Artemis Labs SA-1 Turntable The sound of silence and sweetness. Review By Tom Lyle

Artemis Labs SA-1 Turntable The sound of silence and sweetness. Review By Tom Lyle, Superior Audio Magazine is the leading authority in high-end audiophile music and audio equipment reviews.

www.enjoythemusic.com

Here’s where Nagra’s extensive experience with reel to reel is valuable. The Nagra Turntable, while technically a “belt drive”, is not one in the traditional sense.

 

[Zeotrope]

What kind of record clamp is Nagra using? Doesn’t anyone know where it’s sourced from?

 

[jfrech]

What kind of record clamp is Nagra using? Doesn’t anyone know where it’s sourced from?

I've played around with it. it's not threaded, just a very well machined hunk of copper that's nicely finished. I suspect who ever mills their aluminum components just machined this for them. But I am guessing...

 

[Zeotrope]

I've played around with it. it's not threaded, just a very well machined hunk of copper that's nicely finished. I suspect who ever mills their aluminum components just machined this for them. But I am guessing...

Ok thanks. I have only ever known threaded with my Brinkmann... will the Nagra weight not allow one to get the vinyl as flat? On some albums I really have to tighten the threaded Brinkmann part.

 

[jfrech]

Ok thanks. I have only ever known threaded with my Brinkmann... will the Nagra weight not allow one to get the vinyl as flat? On some albums I really have to tighten the threaded Brinkmann part.

I am used to threads also. From a SME 20/2 for about 10 years and my Grand Prix Monaco for the last 10 or so years. The Nagra clamp is very heavy and seems to do an effective job w/o the threads...

 

[Zeotrope]

I am used to threads also. From a SME 20/2 for about 10 years and my Grand Prix Monaco for the last 10 or so years. The Nagra clamp is very heavy and seems to do an effective job w/o the threads...

Thanks. I noticed that the Brinkmann must be threaded, and on certain platters you have to really tighten it. The reason it must be threaded is because of the small raised washer that sits on top of the platter and under the record. If you don’t tighten the clamp sufficiently the washer raises the record in the center, which defeats the purpose.

 

[adrianywu]

OMA videos are sales talk and should be look at accordingly. I don't feel offended. There are many TV advertisements out there which go way off scale.

The concept of inconsistent stylus drag is valid. The drag is higher with loud passage. The thing is, similar situation is happening in the cutting lache in master production. The drag on the lacquer is not constant. The cutting stylus moves in larger amplitude in loud passage hence causing more drag on the master. The master disc will slow down momentarily, however in a microscopic way.

If you buy this concept, as Mr Weiss do, the best reproduced sound in vinyl is not by absolute constant speed. The best sound is made with the correct reproduction of wobble that occured in cutting lache.

This is why cutting lathes employ vacuum platter and have a motor with enormous torque.

 

[Holmz]

I couldn’t see any results. They didn’t show the numbers.

It’s troubling isn’t it…
One would think that they would be shouting it from the roof tops.

So the explicit conclusion that one could reach… is that the numbers were not good enough to post.

I mean, who breaks out the high powered analysis tool kits, and then doesn’t share the results?

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

Thanks. I noticed that the Brinkmann must be threaded, and on certain platters you have to really tighten it. The reason it must be threaded is because of the small raised washer that sits on top of the platter and under the record. If you don’t tighten the clamp sufficiently the washer raises the record in the center, which defeats the purpose.

Hi 'Zeotrope',
What are the dimensions of the small raised washer (outer diameter, inner hole diameter and thickness) and what material is it made of ?

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

Hi 'Zeotrope',
What are the dimensions of the small raised washer (outer diameter, inner hole diameter and thickness) and what material is it made of ?

Does the washer have a completely flat or does it have a slightly convex outer surface ?

 

[Zeotrope]

It’s troubling isn’t it…
One would think that they would be shouting it from the roof tops.

So the explicit conclusion that one could reach… is that the numbers were not good enough to post.

I mean, who breaks out the high powered analysis tool kits, and then doesn’t share the results?

What are you talking about? If you’re referring to the Hiendy video of the Nagra, the results are in the video. (Not that I would call it a “high powered analysis”, but it’s there.) Try watching the video first

 

[Zeotrope]

Does the washer have a completely flat or does it have a slightly convex outer surface ?

It lies flat. Here’s a photo:

 

[Bonesy Jonesy]

It lies flat. Here’s a photo:

Hi 'Zeotrope', Thank you for your reply and image of the washer. Much appreciated.

Ooo wow it is very small and looks quite thick (guess due to the centre metal part of the platter being a bit lower than the main glass (???) platter of the Brinkmann ? )

 

[Zeotrope]

Hi 'Zeotrope', Thank you for your reply and image of the washer. Much appreciated.

Ooo wow it is very small and looks quite thick (guess due to the centre metal part of the platter being a bit lower than the main glass (???) platter of the Brinkmann ? )

I’ll try to measure it tonight.
Right, the central metal part of the platter is lower than the rest of the platter. The washer is at the same height as the main platter. When you screw down the clamp, it must press the label part of the record into the washer - it may even make the label concave (as viewed from the top).
What I found with lacquer records, which have a metal core, there was a need to really tighten the clamp on one side — too much for my liking, so I removed the washer and didn’t use the clamp. But that does affect the sound negatively. I’ll try with the clamp very loosely tightened so it acts more as a weight…