US Anti-Doping Agency charges Armstrong

[MylesBAstor]

Do I think he was guilty? Yes.

Do I think they had evidence that would stand up in court? No.

Was he the only one doping? Far from it.

If they award the second place finisher the title, it's even more of a joke!

 

[FrantzM]

Do I think he was guilty? Yes.

Do I think they had evidence that would stand up in court? No.

Was he the only one doping? Far from it.

If they award the second place finisher the title, it's even more of a joke!

+1

 

[rbbert]

...If they award the second place finisher the title, it's even more of a joke!

especially this

 

[MasterChief]

For me, he will always be a hero and all I can say is...Live Strong!

 

[steve williams]

For me, he will always be a hero and all I can say is...Live Strong!

The guy is more than a hero

He had stage 4 testicular carcinoma, was on death's door and came back to win 7 Tours

As Myles said, everyone was a doper.

 

[MylesBAstor]

And let's for a minute say he cheated.

You or I can take the same drugs and we wouldn't win the TdF.

 

[steve williams]

USADA strips 7 Tour titles from Lance Armstrong


COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. (AP) — The U.S. Anti-Doping Agency stripped Lance Armstrong's seven Tour de France titles Friday, erasing one of the most incredible achievements in sports after deciding he had used performance-enhancing drugs to do it.

Armstrong, who retired a year ago, was also hit with a lifetime ban from cycling. An athlete who became a hero to thousands for overcoming cancer and for his foundation's fight against the disease is now officially a drug cheat in the eyes of his nation's doping agency.

In a news release, USADA said Armstrong's decision not to take the charges against him to arbitration triggers the lifetime ineligibility and forfeiture of all results from Aug. 1, 1998, through the present, which would include the Tour de France titles he won from 1999 through 2005.

Armstrong has strongly denied doping and contends USADA was on a ``witch hunt'' without any physical evidence against him.

 

[rbbert]

And let's for a minute say he cheated.

You or I can take the same drugs and we wouldn't win the TdF.

As far as I can tell he competed on a level playing field.

 

[Orb]

The shocking aspect is that USADA have no authority to strip him of those, needs to go to UCI who as already mentioned will only pass comment once they have been given a reasoned response.
The USADA must know this, so what the heck are they playing at is the question....
This really could get messy, one aspect to consider is the testimony of those who will not be prosecuted due to providing anecdotal evidence saying LA is guilty; what happens to the whole teams and individuals winnings.
Technically all of them will have to return this.
Looking forward to the evidence being released and who provided testimony, although I bet it will never be shown who they are
Agree with what you guys say as well.

Cheers
Orb

 

[NorthStar]

For me, he will always be a hero and all I can say is...Live Strong!

The guy is more than a hero

He had stage 4 testicular carcinoma, was on death's door and came back to win 7 Tours

As Myles said, everyone was a doper.

As far as I can tell he competed on a level playing field.

The shocking aspect is that USADA have no authority to strip him of those, needs to go to UCI who as already mentioned will only pass comment once they have been given a reasoned response.
The USADA must know this, so what the heck are they playing at is the question....
This really could get messy, one aspect to consider is the testimony of those who will not be prosecuted due to providing anecdotal evidence saying LA is guilty; what happens to the whole teams and individuals winnings.
Technically all of them will have to return this.
Looking forward to the evidence being released and who provided testimony, although I bet it will never be shown who they are
Agree with what you guys say as well.

Cheers
Orb

-----Oh man! I was going to reply to each post, but abandoned my prospect.

Here's the simple thing: If you let things running the way they do now, you're not teaching anything good to our kids, you just let the virus spread deeper and deeper in a spiralling vice of malices... ...Let's get things cleaned up here and start true and fresh, with a real heart, unspoiled from any drugs.
HEALTH (physical & mental) & HONESTY first and always. ...For the best of mankind, US (the kids of our kids, you, I, them, ...).

You might be the God of heavens, but if you cheat in any way to reach your goals and elevate your reputation, you're the God of nothing!

* I'm the closest to Myle's opinion at this juncture.

 

[Orb]

Agreed but so far its been speculation and circumstantial evidence Northstar, so until actual proof is shown LA is innocent IMO.
It is interesting that none have been caught doping while riding for LA, however once caught (riding for another team and usually in a more senior role) they state LA showed them what to do and the process.
Now if that was true logically they would still not be caught as LA has not failed doping tests.
One thing to consider, LA is probably one of the fittest/leanest riders ever in the modern history of cycling and also gone under same performance testing as a couple of others, unlike many others who have been caught doping.

Furthermore he only trained to be in peak condition for TdF, and was ruthless enough not to worry about losing other events he used for training-conditioning.
Regarding the last point, just look at the British cycling team in the Olympics; they underperformed at the Track Cycling World Championships that was just before the Olympics, then went onto break multiple world records and won many gold medals at the Olympics.

My biggest concern are those who manage to win multiple tours in one year, such as Alberto Contador and a few others.
Cheers
Orb

 

[Peter Breuninger]

Lance's real crime is that he legitimized doping for the sport. It is very sad that the cycling (my) sport, is full of such cheating. The reason it is is because winning is directly dependent on endurance and cardio performance. This is very little "real" skill in cycling, it's not like hitting home runs or having the ability to thread through towering players in the NBA and consistently score. In cycling, outside of aerobic gifts from birth, the skill is in the training. Lance trained better read "cheated" better than anyone else. There is no doubt he is a unique human specimen. When you add in Lances "training" techniques you get wins, lots of them. The reason he did not arbitrate is simple. He is the greatest sports fraud and humanitarian fraud in history.

 

[FrantzM]

Lance's real crime is that he legitimized doping for the sport. It is very sad that the cycling (my) sport, is full of such cheating. The reason it is is because winning is directly dependent on endurance and cardio performance. This is very little "real" skill in cycling, it's not like hitting home runs or having the ability to thread through towering players in the NBA and consistently score. In cycling, outside of aerobic gifts from birth, the skill is in the training. Lance trained better read "cheated" better than anyone else. There is no doubt he is a unique human specimen. When you add in Lances "training" techniques you get wins, lots of them. The reason he did not arbitrate is simple. He is the greatest sports fraud and humanitarian fraud in history.

ouch!!

 

[NorthStar]

---Here ya go Peter; you just took the words right out of my mouth.

 

[Gregadd]

Lance's real crime is that he legitimized doping for the sport. It is very sad that the cycling (my) sport, is full of such cheating. The reason it is is because winning is directly dependent on endurance and cardio performance. This is very little "real" skill in cycling, it's not like hitting home runs or having the ability to thread through towering players in the NBA and consistently score. In cycling, outside of aerobic gifts from birth, the skill is in the training. Lance trained better read "cheated" better than anyone else. There is no doubt he is a unique human specimen. When you add in Lances "training" techniques you get wins, lots of them. The reason he did not arbitrate is simple. He is the greatest sports fraud and humanitarian fraud in history.

Why is there a right against self- incrimination? Who gives a d--- whether a guilty person incriminates themself? The reason there is a right against self-ircrimination is to prevent the inquiry. To prevent the ordinaryy citizen from having to constantly acquit himself of a barage of never ending allegations.
Even for a person of means mounitng a constant battle against constant vexing allegatiobns and financing prohibitively expensive legal battles is exhausting. For contemporaneous allegations Lance submitted samples and the test was negative. TdF officials have retained samples of his blood should more revealing tests emerge. It's unfair to now rely on human testimony long after the fact.
When I heard this story I thought new evidence had been discovered. It's the same witchunt being affirmed by a kangaroo court.

Too bad a great athelete has been ruined.

 

[NorthStar]

---This is a good thread; and exposing two sides (or more) of different mentalities.

 

[rockitman]

So this is all based on hearsay...doping allegations by former teammates who got zero fame and have an axe to grind? How many tests has he taken over the years and passed ? If they have one sample that tests positive, how do we know it wasn't tainted. Here's what's going on. France hated the fact that their national sport Tour de France was won by an American and 7 times. Lance was the greatest cyclist of all time to the chagrin of Europeans. What a travesty. I will never watch the race again and to me and I am sure many others lance was the best cyclist the world has ever seen, end of story. The hypocrisy of it all.

 

[Orb]

I guess for some of us it is more about methodology and that "subjective" evidence is not the same as "scientifically proven-objective" evidence
Notice how I link subjective vs objective in this thread
So far all that has been presented to find LA guilty is subjective/anecdotal.
Funny how he has never been caught on TdF while critically those others have, even though LA has no control-influence of the French doping agency/police/etc when they have done raids,tests,etc.
Would be impossible for him to cover it up.

Slightly different tangent, if USADA are this adamant, are they then suggesting UCI are complicit, amongst others.....
I do wonder why this case is only focused on LA and not anyone outside of his core associates.
After all Johan Bruyneel is not American or has an American license.
Why have they not also investigating Alberto Contador who also rode for the same team and has had questionable test.....

Many questions, and if USADA were being objective these would also be considered.
And yeah good thread with different views on the subject, I think there is a lot of food for thought for all the various views.
Cheers
Orb

 

[Orb]

Rockitman,
there could be actual evidence, but it was never released to LA when was requested and no-one else outside of USADA has seen it yet.
Why it is really important this is released sooner rather than later, although USADA are saying they will release the evidence at an appropriate time, due to their ongoing case with others.
But as there are no juries involved and those being investigated and accused are already named, this seems a bit pedantic of USADA.
Bear in mind it is a US agency bringing this about and enforcing, rather than French, UCI or WADA agencies or TdF organisers, so still worth watching these races without boycott.

And sadly will mean this will drag on until they do.
Cheers
Orb

 

[rockitman]

They need hard evidence from each and every victory if they are stripping all seven titles. This whole thing smells like rotten Foie Gras.