Valin's new MSB Reference dac & transport review, AS Product Year Award

[microstrip]

Useless question to you maybe. Lampi has more flow and can better match gain to the preamp than many phono chains. So you can take the source file, and then play it back with more energy than it was being played through the analog chain.

He hasn't rolled all valves on his GG though, he is already excited and getting Pacific (though I prefer GG to Pac)

Then the answer can be also misleading. If the phono chain is a poor mismatch to the preamplfier it is not a fair comparison. I remember that Musical Fidelity also sold a tube buffer to be inserted at the output of SS DACs to add some tube noise and distortion in the chain. They claimed it added flow and drive ...

My be it is possible to use the Lampi just as a buffer to the phono, bypassing the digital stage. Unfortunately we do not have access to technical details on the Lampi.

 

[bonzo75]

You will be able to optimise the gain with Lampi much more easily than with analog. Analog once set in is difficult to change unless you have a lot of various carts and phonos at your disposal. Also in the rips he edits out the clicks and pops. Btw I have not done the compares with his. Also I am not saying Lampi wins on all counts. There are definite advantages to playing actual vinyl but there are some playing it back on the Lampi.

 

[microstrip]

Hi Bonzo,

Great post. Have you done a compare of a vinyl rip to the original vinyl?

I happen to prefer the vinyl rips because of eliminated stylus microphonics (when done professionally). And the great thing is the professionally done rips sound great on a $3K DAC. Obviously they sound even better on a $20K DAC, but one doesn't need to spend that money on a DAC if one listens to good or great recordings.

Are you saying you prefer vinyl rips to LP playback?

The subject of stylus microphonics is very interesting - it was suggested in the past that we like LP playback because of it! Did you have the opportunity to compare quality rips carried with speakers on and off?

 

[caesar]

Are you saying you prefer vinyl rips to LP playback?

The subject of stylus microphonics is very interesting - it was suggested in the past that we like LP playback because of it! Did you have the opportunity to compare quality rips carried with speakers on and off?

Correct! I had the pro who ripped the stuff play me the original vinyl and then the rip from the same rig. The original vinyl is so friggin NOISYwhile the rips are DEAD QUIET!

 

[microstrip]

You will be able to optimise the gain with Lampi much more easily than with analog. Analog once set in is difficult to change unless you have a lot of various carts and phonos at your disposal. Also in the rips he edits out the clicks and pops. Btw I have not done the compares with his. Also I am not saying Lampi wins on all counts. There are definite advantages to playing actual vinyl but there are some playing it back on the Lampi.

Are you addressing this system? http://zero-distortion.org/about-larry/ The digital ripping system looks top, although many purists will not be happy with the use of the declicking/denoiser. Do you know what is the resolution/format of his rips?

 

[microstrip]

Correct! I had the pro who ripped the stuff play me the original vinyl and then the rip from the same rig. The original vinyl is so friggin NOISYwhile the rips are DEAD QUIET!

Noisy and quiet in what sense?

 

[bonzo75]

Are you addressing this system? http://zero-distortion.org/about-larry/ The digital ripping system looks top, although many purists will not be happy with the use of the declicking/denoiser. Do you know what is the resolution/format of his rips?

PCM 24x192

 

[Elliot G.]

Elliot,

I agree and I find it is difficult even identifying what one’s own personal “ best” preference is , given the difficulties of isolating components in various systems. Moreover, individual listeners have individual preferences and priorities from any given component or system . Having said that , I do think with sufficient exposure to a known component , even with the variables of being heard in other systems and with room differences , some general characteristics can be identified . The aforementioned “ whitish “ sound of the older ARC amplifiers was an identifiable characteristic in virtually every system in which I heard them , albeit more prominent in some systems than others. To some it was a disqualifier, to others, not at all. But it was an identifiable characteristic.

Alan

I agree with you that some components have a defining sound to them. My entering into the thread was about the comments that the MSB was "THE BEST" I do think that the MSB Select 2 is a really excellent DAC but I have an issue with the one man survey in a vacuum. I am fine with them saying that it was the best they have heard but the other statements are really only hyperbole and to draw attention.
Shocking Statement #1
Magazines are in business to make money.......OMG how dare they
Shocking Statement #2 people love the reviewer when he agrees with them and endorses what they like or own!
Since we don't all like the same things it is important to do your own homework and IMHO look to own a system not a collection of highly rated pieces.
LET THE MUSIC PLAY
Happy Holidays to all and to all a good night.

 

[caesar]

Noisy and quiet in what sense?

The stylus micro-phonic noise is akin to someone holding a microphone at a conference and speaking through it, inadvertently touching the microphone, bumping against his lips, etc.

This noise is more than vinyl surface noise or the noise that is eliminated by putting in a reference power conditioning piece and cords for your digital rig.

It was really eye opening for me, and I got quickly converted. It's beyond a huge component upgrade...

 

[caesar]

PCM 24x192

I also like 192/ 24 PCM the best

 

[caesar]

I agree with you that some components have a defining sound to them. My entering into the thread was about the comments that the MSB was "THE BEST" I do think that the MSB Select 2 is a really excellent DAC but I have an issue with the one man survey in a vacuum. I am fine with them saying that it was the best they have heard but the other statements are really only hyperbole and to draw attention.
Shocking Statement #1
Magazines are in business to make money.......OMG how dare they
Shocking Statement #2 people love the reviewer when he agrees with them and endorses what they like or own!
Since we don't all like the same things it is important to do your own homework and IMHO look to own a system not a collection of highly rated pieces.
LET THE MUSIC PLAY
Happy Holidays to all and to all a good night.

We talked about this a bit in the Wilson marketing thread, but in a highly confusing situation, such as the digital part of high end audio, people look to expert figures (authority-based influence) and groups of vocal fans such as we have on this site (social-proof influence) to put them at ease in spending big money. Even guys who can afford $50K and $100K DACs don't want a terrible, awful experience that digital audio may sometimes be. Loss aversion is a much more potent force than gain, and people are very motivated to avoid failure than to achieve gains (Kahneman won the 1979 Nobel prize in economics; google prospect theory). So between the passionate fans on this site talking in pure joy about MSB and Valin's endorsement, MSB is on the way!

 

[Elliot G.]

We talked about this a bit in the Wilson marketing thread, but in a highly confusing situation, such as the digital part of high end audio, people look to expert figures (authority-based influence) and groups of vocal fans such as we have on this site (social-proof influence) to put them at ease in spending big money. Even guys who can afford $50K and $100K DACs don't want a terrible, awful experience that digital audio may sometimes be. Loss aversion is a much more potent force than gain, and people are very motivated to avoid failure than to achieve gains (Kahneman won the 1979 Nobel prize in economics; google prospect theory). So between the passionate fans on this site talking in pure joy about MSB and Valin's endorsement, MSB is on the way!

I think the MSB is a great piece. I have said this many times Audio is a system based result not an item based result.
If I listen to the MSB on a system I don't like does that mean the MSB is no good or vice versa? People want to put the result on the piece. i.s when I had a store I would hear comments like " Wow that is the best digital cable I have ever heard." Really??? in a system you don't own with equipment you don't have in a room which is not yours. Yes because TAS said so or Stereophile said so!

 

[caesar]

I think the MSB is a great piece. I have said this many times Audio is a system based result not an item based result.
If I listen to the MSB on a system I don't like does that mean the MSB is no good or vice versa? People want to put the result on the piece. i.s when I had a store I would hear comments like " Wow that is the best digital cable I have ever heard." Really??? in a system you don't own with equipment you don't have in a room which is not yours. Yes because TAS said so or Stereophile said so!

Amen! Well said! That is the whole point of my Wilson losing its marketing edge thread. There is an interplay of a lot of factors, including technical, subjective, economics, psychology, etc.

 

[microstrip]

The stylus micro-phonic noise is akin to someone holding a microphone at a conference and speaking through it, inadvertently touching the microphone, bumping against his lips, etc.

Can't understand what you mean. No one will touch or disturb the turntable, except acoustic feedback - is this what you are addressing?

This noise is more than vinyl surface noise or the noise that is eliminated by putting in a reference power conditioning piece and cords for your digital rig.

It was really eye opening for me, and I got quickly converted. It's beyond a huge component upgrade...

This will only change the sound of digital - are you saying even analog can benefit of digital tweaks that could not be applied to analog playback? This type improvement seems to be bound to your system, it is not generic.

 

[asiufy]

Wow, I leave for a bit and thread balloons

Just thought I'd drop this here for those that were offended by my comments. I shouldn't need to apologize for posting MY OPINION. And I shouldn't need to attach an "IMHO" to the end of every opinion. You all know that what I wrote was MY OPINION. Yes, I think MSB *IS* the best digital that I've heard. And again, it's MY OPINION. I'll happily change it if I ever hear something better.

If Ron and Steve think this kind of opinion is not welcome, then I will refrain from doing so.

thanks,
Alex

 

[Steve Williams]

Wow, I leave for a bit and thread balloons

Just thought I'd drop this here for those that were offended by my comments. I shouldn't need to apologize for posting MY OPINION. And I shouldn't need to attach an "IMHO" to the end of every opinion. You all know that what I wrote was MY OPINION. Yes, I think MSB *IS* the best digital that I've heard. And again, it's MY OPINION. I'll happily change it if I ever heard something better.

If Ron and Steve think this kind of opinion is not welcome, then I will refrain from doing so.

thanks,
Alex

Hi Alex

FWIW my anecdotal story has lead me to the very same conclusion. It was an experience for me when I first heard the Select ll. I have now heard it many times and for what I have heard in systems other than my own, it continues to give me goose bumps and I have no skin in the game

 

[Al M.]

Wow, I leave for a bit and thread balloons

Just thought I'd drop this here for those that were offended by my comments. I shouldn't need to apologize for posting MY OPINION. And I shouldn't need to attach an "IMHO" to the end of every opinion. You all know that what I wrote was MY OPINION. Yes, I think MSB *IS* the best digital that I've heard. And again, it's MY OPINION. I'll happily change it if I ever hear something better.

If Ron and Steve think this kind of opinion is not welcome, then I will refrain from doing so.

thanks,
Alex

Alex, no one would have taken offense if you had said "the MSB is the best digital I have heard", in those words. Unfortunately your statement was not worded that way, and left plenty of room for what in your view was a misinterpretation. We've gone over this already.

We all have to be careful with how we say what we say, and I will be the first to concede that I have made plenty of mistakes in that regard myself.

 

[asiufy]

Al,

As I said, it is painfully obvious for all to see that it was "IMHO" (in my honest/humble opinion). Everybody else but a handful of you. To me, there's no other possible interpretation of what I wrote other than MSB is the best digital I've ever heard.

And you know why this should be painfully obvious? Because nobody should be commenting on stuff they've never heard! Yet, there are folks on this (and other) forum that comment on gear they never heard. I try not to. So if I like something best above others, it's obvious that it's above all others *I have heard*.

 

[Al M.]

Al,

As I said, it is painfully obvious for all to see that it was "IMHO" (in my honest/humble opinion). Everybody else but a handful of you. To me, there's no other possible interpretation of what I wrote other than MSB is the best digital I've ever heard.

And you know why this should be painfully obvious? Because nobody should be commenting on stuff they've never heard! Yet, there are folks on this (and other) forum that comment on gear they never heard. I try not to. So if I like something best above others, it's obvious that it's above all others *I have heard*.

Alex,

if it is so painfully obvious for all to see that it was "IMHO" (in my honest/humble opinion), I invite everyone to judge for themselves what you wrote in post #6. Here is the relevant paragraph:

"That's why my stance on the MSB stuff is that it's the best digital, NOT because it's like good vinyl, but because it allows you to enjoy standard CDs and even Tidal streams as best as I've ever heard them. From the start, that was the one shocking thing with the SELECT. These DACs made me go back and re-purchase a whole lot of 80s CD pressings, which, as it turns out, sound way, way better than the "remasters" or high-res downloads."

 

[PeterA]

Alex, I think it is clear now because you have further explained your post, but it was not obvious at first. If it were that obvious, then no one would have commented. Here it is again:

"That's why my stance on the MSB stuff is that it's the best digital, NOT because it's like good vinyl, but because it allows you to enjoy standard CDs and even Tidal streams as best as I've ever heard them."

I agree with those who read your post that it is a bit ambiguous. The first part of the sentence said that you thought it was the best digital, then the second part added the qualifier "...as best as I've ever heard them." Add to this that you are a dealer for that brand, and I see where people felt the need to respond.