Valin's new MSB Reference dac & transport review, AS Product Year Award
- Thread starter Mike Lavigne
- Start date
Just read the review. Thanks for the link, Alex. This comment stands out to me because it seems at odds with the criticisms up thread which made reference to JV's comment about digital's portrayal of depth relative to vinyl's.
"But it is also due to the MSB DAC, which, when all is just so, “floats” instruments and voices in front of, behind, between, and far to the sides of the Magicos, escaping the bonds of sonic gravity in a way I’ve never heard before save via Radialstrahlers (which aren’t as neutral). For instance, there isn’t an instrument in the septet of violin, doublebass, clarinet, bassoon, cornet, trombone, and percussion in Pentatone’s wonderful SACD of Stravinsky’s L’Histoire du soldat that isn’t perfectly present in its own space in what seems like an unbounded (by room or loudspeaker or electronics) soundstage. On streamed MQA material (via Roon and Tidal), there isn’t one of the newly recorded backup vocalists potted into the late, incomparably great Aretha Franklin’s “Don’t Play That Song” (from A Brand New Me [Rhino/Atlantic]) who isn’t completely individuated and fully “there” in her own, cushioned-with-air space (which sounds a little different than the other spaces on the recording, as it should since it is a fresh addition)."
This does not seem to support the notion that digital does not do depth well. He describes that it does right there. If the instruments are in their own space, and behind the speakers, as well as in front of them, one has good portrayal of depth. He even describes it as realistic. Perhaps he means that digital depth is lacking compared to the best analog. I really wish he and others at TAS would make more comparisons because these reviews are in a vacuum or compared to something old and not heard in a long time.
I am not surprised that JV mentioned MQA in his review. Robert Harley was a big proponent of the technology in the pages of TAS just a short while ago.
The first reader comment in the TAS blog is interesting, because it mentions the plethora of good digital available today, and how it sounds relative to analog, at least according to that reader.
"But it is also due to the MSB DAC, which, when all is just so, “floats” instruments and voices in front of, behind, between, and far to the sides of the Magicos, escaping the bonds of sonic gravity in a way I’ve never heard before save via Radialstrahlers (which aren’t as neutral). For instance, there isn’t an instrument in the septet of violin, doublebass, clarinet, bassoon, cornet, trombone, and percussion in Pentatone’s wonderful SACD of Stravinsky’s L’Histoire du soldat that isn’t perfectly present in its own space in what seems like an unbounded (by room or loudspeaker or electronics) soundstage. On streamed MQA material (via Roon and Tidal), there isn’t one of the newly recorded backup vocalists potted into the late, incomparably great Aretha Franklin’s “Don’t Play That Song” (from A Brand New Me [Rhino/Atlantic]) who isn’t completely individuated and fully “there” in her own, cushioned-with-air space (which sounds a little different than the other spaces on the recording, as it should since it is a fresh addition)."
This does not seem to support the notion that digital does not do depth well. He describes that it does right there. If the instruments are in their own space, and behind the speakers, as well as in front of them, one has good portrayal of depth. He even describes it as realistic. Perhaps he means that digital depth is lacking compared to the best analog. I really wish he and others at TAS would make more comparisons because these reviews are in a vacuum or compared to something old and not heard in a long time.
I am not surprised that JV mentioned MQA in his review. Robert Harley was a big proponent of the technology in the pages of TAS just a short while ago.
The first reader comment in the TAS blog is interesting, because it mentions the plethora of good digital available today, and how it sounds relative to analog, at least according to that reader.
Hi Tao,
MSB isn't doing this for charity. If it were, there are more deserving older men than Valin to send this product to
. He just happens to be a great writer...Of course, they will send the Select dac to Valin also. He will write it up as great and help remove the fear of loss for guys who are concerned about spending $100K on a DAC, or to help lure away guys away from dCS. Reviewers, after all, are just marketeers.
Sometimes we find there good information in some reviews and articles from some knowledgeable people. Fortunately digital subscription cost is so low that I do not feel guilty of reading about 5% of it.
Where else can you find an excellent 6 page long review of the D'Agostino's Momentum 400 and preamplfier by Jacob Heilbrunn carried with the WAMM's? (Yes, Ked, they would also sound good on the XLF's
)
Yes Caesar, on this one I fear you may be right. Perhaps the whole notion of JV first reviewing the penultimate MSB dac and leaving an ‘almost there but not quite’ outcome as a predetermined strategy to then come back with a landmark JV Select 2 review where digital finally reaches the plateau for JV sitting right up there besides analogue. Perhaps an almost predictable plot so no real spoiler alert there.
For the guys here like Mike L, Priaptor, Kingsrule and others who have already invested in Select 2 I wonder if hearing that earth shattering relevation/concession from JV is actually going to mean very much at all given how programmatic this outcome would then be.
At this point for JV to get the Select 2 to review (and obviously then to get to keep it) by playing this big all out final gambit is going to look just way too predetermined a move for even the least jaded of us. I’m sure MSB doesn’t really need that kind of question mark hanging over their flagship player. The writer who gets to review it and perhaps then calls it up at the top of the mountain clearly needs to have considerable long term experience of the other major SOTA digital players as well as the very best of analogue.
For the guys here like Mike L, Priaptor, Kingsrule and others who have already invested in Select 2 I wonder if hearing that earth shattering relevation/concession from JV is actually going to mean very much at all given how programmatic this outcome would then be.
At this point for JV to get the Select 2 to review (and obviously then to get to keep it) by playing this big all out final gambit is going to look just way too predetermined a move for even the least jaded of us. I’m sure MSB doesn’t really need that kind of question mark hanging over their flagship player. The writer who gets to review it and perhaps then calls it up at the top of the mountain clearly needs to have considerable long term experience of the other major SOTA digital players as well as the very best of analogue.
Sure, for guys like us who are passionate and fanatical about this stuff, it's all predictable... but for the many of the 15-30 guys per month, or whatever that number is , that are buying this DAC, they are not always reading here, but are likely to be handed a glossy piece of paper with Valin's review ... and in return, they hand over their credit card.
Peter,
I noticed the same thing! He starts the review saying the DAC doesn't do great depth, and then proceeds, further down, to give an example of the DAC doing just that Funny to say the least.
caesar,
As much as you like to see a conspiracy in anything TAS-related, I can assure you there was none in this particular review. MSB feels strongly that their current line of DACs will appeal to many analogheads, and JV was interested, so the review was arranged. The interesting thing is that none of the designers *are* into vinyl, and they actually do not have vinyl-like playback as a design goal.
Maybe it is a coincidence, but everybody from this forum that has visited us in the store has liked the MSB well enough, some even purchasing one, and some are considering purchasing one.
Our doors are open to whoever wants to give the MSB DACs a listen. We currently have the MSB Reference as well as the entry-level MSB Discrete DAC.
cheers,
Alex
I noticed the same thing! He starts the review saying the DAC doesn't do great depth, and then proceeds, further down, to give an example of the DAC doing just that
Funny to say the least.caesar,
As much as you like to see a conspiracy in anything TAS-related, I can assure you there was none in this particular review. MSB feels strongly that their current line of DACs will appeal to many analogheads, and JV was interested, so the review was arranged. The interesting thing is that none of the designers *are* into vinyl, and they actually do not have vinyl-like playback as a design goal.
Maybe it is a coincidence, but everybody from this forum that has visited us in the store has liked the MSB well enough, some even purchasing one, and some are considering purchasing one.
Our doors are open to whoever wants to give the MSB DACs a listen. We currently have the MSB Reference as well as the entry-level MSB Discrete DAC.
cheers,
Alex
Peter,
I noticed the same thing! He starts the review saying the DAC doesn't do great depth, and then proceeds, further down, to give an example of the DAC doing just that
caesar,
As much as you like to see a conspiracy in anything TAS-related, I can assure you there was none in this particular review. MSB feels strongly that their current line of DACs will appeal to many analogheads, and JV was interested, so the review was arranged. The interesting thing is that none of the designers *are* into vinyl, and they actually do not have vinyl-like playback as a design goal.
Maybe it is a coincidence, but everybody from this forum that has visited us in the store has liked the MSB well enough, some even purchasing one, and some are considering purchasing one.
Our doors are open to whoever wants to give the MSB DACs a listen. We currently have the MSB Reference as well as the entry-level MSB Discrete DAC.
cheers,
Alex
Alex,
I am not suggesting any conspiracy theories at all. What I am suggesting is that vast majority (but not all!!!) of reviewers and "audio journalists" are filthy, disgusting, despicable individuals whose incentives are not aligned with those of the fans who spend their hard earned money.
The reviewers abuse the subjectivity of this hobby and lie, exaggerate, mislead, confuse, deceive, and misinform people - resulting in wasted time and money of honest, hard working people who have a passion for this hobby. The TAS guys like "worthless to the audio fans" Robert Harley are the worst specimen of these disgusting scum that contribute to the fukk the audio fan culture that exists in this hobby. Amazing that a guy like TAS owner Tom Martin allows "worthless" harley to humiliate his legacy.
Here's some more thoughts on misalignment of incentives: https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/new-bada-dac-dsd-debunked.12863/page-6#post-339348
Anyways, out of respect for MSB, I don't want to take this further in this thread. But I will be happy to come back to this in other threads.
Alex,
I am not suggesting any conspiracy theories at all. What I am suggesting is that vast majority (but not all!!!) of reviewers and "audio journalists" are filthy, disgusting, despicable individuals whose incentives are not aligned with those of the fans who spend their hard earned money.
The reviewers abuse the subjectivity of this hobby and lie, exaggerate, mislead, confuse, deceive, and misinform people - resulting in wasted time and money of honest, hard working people who have a passion for this hobby. The TAS guys like "worthless to the audio fans" Robert Harley are the worst specimen of these disgusting scum that contribute to the fukk the audio fan culture that exists in this hobby. Amazing that a guy like TAS owner Tom Martin allows "worthless" harley to humiliate his legacy.
Here's some more thoughts on misalignment of incentives: https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/new-bada-dac-dsd-debunked.12863/page-6#post-339348
Anyways, out of respect for MSB, I don't want to take this further in this thread. But I will be happy to come back to this in other threads.
Actually, I think Robert Harley is much more competent in reviewing digital than Jonathan Valin who should stick to Magico speakers. Harley's review of the Yggdrasil DAC was very informative. I don't say this because it was a glowing review of the DAC that I own, but because for the most part it described the sound rather accurately. Valin's MSB review on the other hand is worthless; I know as much or as little about the DAC as before reading it. One description that I read on WBF (I think) was much more useful to get an idea.
I do agree with you that the interests of the reviewers are mostly NOT aligned with us who buy high end gear. Also, I would never have bought the Yggdrasil DAC on Harley's review alone, in fact I had already put in the order before the review came out. I bought it based on other opinions and in the knowledge that I could return it within 15 days on a 5 % restocking fee, which would have been rather little money given the purchase price.
In general I don't think anyone should buy something on professional (or 'professional') reviews alone, if they have otherwise no opportunity to hear the gear beforehand, or if there is no reasonable return policy in case the product does not satisfy.
So I don't quite see your point, Caesar, about wasted time and money due to the misdeeds of reviewers.
So I don't quite see your point, Caesar, about wasted time and money due to the misdeeds of reviewers.
Elliot G.
Industry Expert
Caesar,Alex,
I am not suggesting any conspiracy theories at all. What I am suggesting is that vast majority (but not all!!!) of reviewers and "audio journalists" are filthy, disgusting, despicable individuals whose incentives are not aligned with those of the fans who spend their hard earned money.
The reviewers abuse the subjectivity of this hobby and lie, exaggerate, mislead, confuse, deceive, and misinform people - resulting in wasted time and money of honest, hard working people who have a passion for this hobby. The TAS guys like "worthless to the audio fans" Robert Harley are the worst specimen of these disgusting scum that contribute to the fukk the audio fan culture that exists in this hobby. Amazing that a guy like TAS owner Tom Martin allows "worthless" harley to humiliate his legacy.
Here's some more thoughts on misalignment of incentives: https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/new-bada-dac-dsd-debunked.12863/page-6#post-339348
Anyways, out of respect for MSB, I don't want to take this further in this thread. But I will be happy to come back to this in other threads.
What did they do to you? LOL
I think that your rant is missing something far more logical and less sinister. I know that you are young or at least younger then some of us old guys so perhaps a little background and history might help. HP never wanted to take advertising and in fact back in the days when I used to fight with him about it all the time he kept saying no. My plan was the separation of church and state meaning I would handle the advertising and he the magazine and they would never meet until the issue was published. He could lay down parameters and I would abide by them. This of course never happened and we got into a heated argument at Papagallo's restaurant in Glen Cove where Arnie Nudell was present and liked the advertising idea but we were both dismissed. LOL
Anyway my point here is the magazines are a profit making business!!!!!
Yes that is correct they are there to support themselves and to make a profit. What a concept LOL
SO there are many factors at work in all of these things you want to point at as if there is a major conspiracy.
The magazines of course are going to tend to pay more attention to the companies that support them via advertising. I am not saying that influences the reviews since there is no real proof of such just conjecture but you can believe as you like. For companies that do not advertise in the publications getting noticed is more difficult and a review, if they are looking for one, usually more difficult as well to obtain. I am sure Mrs Valin and Harley have loads of things that people want them to try and endorse. This is a basis of business. You want something and I want something in return. Please remember the reviewers don't lay out there hard earned cash to obtain the items that everyone posting here has done. They may if they have to buy something after but the top guys really don't buy much all the product is on extended term loans. Another thing is they are in the business of WHATS NEW and that drives the car. Every issue there is NEW ! A NEW Best and that is what is discussed and argued about on WBF and other forums.
You can't castigate them for wanting to make a living! All of us who are in the audio Industry want to make a living as well as enjoy the gear and our music. You and everyone else has the opportunity and the choice to support them or dismiss them. I love your passion but I do believe you lack history and perspective.
If you want to have some fun go read the TAS mags from the beginning all the way to the late 80's and you will see a different way things were presented and handled. Harry was a great story teller and took the readers on a wonderful journey.
There was another good post regarding reviewing here by a dagogo reviewer
https://www.audionirvana.org/forum/...recommended-components-list?p=97483#post97483
https://www.audionirvana.org/forum/...recommended-components-list?p=97483#post97483
RH isn't any good either - he's mostly marketing speak and rarely compares components.
At least Stereophile mandates comparisons and provides measurements which are far more useful than RH/JV mumbo jumbo.
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You mean like Jacob Helibrunn. Micro likes not comparing reviews. It helps since Jacob has the dCS and maybe that's why he is worried about compares lol
Agreed, RH rarely compares, but his digital reviews are still much more competent than Valin's MSB review. Stereophile isn't much better than TAS either. And their ratings system (A, B, C, D) is ridiculous.
I generally like reviews of enthusiastic owners much more, if they are well written. A 'professional' review may still be useful if it is backed up by such owner feedback, or if all professional reviews of a particular product highlight the same characteristics. If I see a trend, this may be useful. I bought my first Reference 3A speakers that way, since among other things all reviews highlighted dynamics, liveliness and tone; this was backed up by owner experiences.
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