Valin's new MSB Reference dac & transport review, AS Product Year Award
- Thread starter Mike Lavigne
- Start date
Al, you have written extensively about why you don't like MQA, yet RH is one of the leading proponents of advancing MQA within the pages of TAS. If you disagree about that topic, why do you think his digital reviews are much more competent than Valin's? Is it because you just think he has more experience with digital gear?
It's because I think he has more experience with digital gear, and sometimes his descriptions of sonic attributes are really worthwhile to read. And yes, he has tons of egg on his face because of MQA, and so does John Atkinson from Stereophile. Those guys have lost lots of credibility because of that. JA tried to half-heartedly defend himself on the Computer Audiophile thread "MQA is Vaporware", but it only made things worse.
It was clear they were either paid to promote MQA and/or got bamboozled -- if I remember correctly, JA got MQA mixes back of his own recordings after, upon request, sending out the material for individual channels; this might then simply have been remixed to make it sound better or different, nothing to do with MQA. All the technical claims of MQA don't work out, as has been extensively discussed on Computer Audiophile and elsewhere. MQA Inc. did not engage with the technical arguments there, quite obviously because they couldn't honestly defend themselves.
RH also speaks from both sides of his mouth when on one hand he praises the temporal "deblurring" of MQA as the essential second coming of digital, without which it basically ceases to mean anything, and then states as conclusion of his Yggdrasil review:
"If you’re looking for a DAC that does quad-rate DSD, decodes MQA, offers a volume control, and includes a headphone amp, look elsewhere. But if the very best reproduction of PCM sources is your goal, the Yggdrasil is the ticket. It’s a spectacular performer on an absolute level, and an out-of-this world bargain. The Yggy is not just a tremendous value in today’s DACs, it’s one of the greatest bargains in the history of high-end audio."
So if digital without MQA is so sub-par, but the Yggy doesn't decode it, how can it then, according to RH's own logic, be a spectacular performer on an absolute level?
Al, having heard an MQA demo, I can tell you that there is a difference between it and the standard Redbook file. Easy to get fooled by the difference, which is apparently tweaked at a different sampling rate. Looking at the MQA situation in hind sight, it certainly was a bunch of BS, but one can easily see how JA and RH were fooled, I know I was.
Perhaps, Davey, but to your great credit you conceded that you were fooled. I am not sure if JA and RH would ever take that laudable step.
i enjoy getting fooled with MQA on a regular basis. i don't really concern myself too much with why i like it, or what it really is or is not. i have 17 terabytes of files of all digital resolutions and formats, so i'm entirely familiar with what great digital should sound like, yet many of the MQA files played back through the Select II sound mighty fine.
go figure.
i respect any and all MQA opinions. it's not worth any conflict.
The MQA sound is fine, what concerns me isn’t that. What concerns me is the basic business plan behind the scheme.
What concerns me is the digital business plan. Seems like the plan is to develop the next "must have" digital format so everyone has to buy a new DAC. $120K on a MSB DAC that is supposedly future-proof? No, it ain't. Nothing is. Anthem claimed their Statement D1 was future proof and it was until it wasn't. Upgraded to D2, then D2v, then D2v 3D then the processors in it would not support 4K so no more updates and it was obsolete. To paraphrase the late Charley Hanson: "Is that DAC state of the art? . . . How about now?"
You can't compare a home theater processor with a high-end, modular DAC. Two completely different products, built on completely different business models, and even target publics.
The whole video industry makes sure that processors become irrelevant year after year, and force you into dubious hardware upgrades.
High-end DACs were more like the PC industry, where every X amount of years, you'd upgrade your DAC in order to get the "better chip". Unlike PCs though, you couldn't just pop in the new chip into your old DAC, you had to sell your old and buy the new.
Now, with modular, open designs, that is not the case anymore. If you buy one such DAC, it is as future proof as your amp. Or your speakers. It'll last as long as the manufacturer lasts, and provides new modules for it.
If an MQA 2.0 comes up, I'm sure MSB will provide the new appropriate modules, perhaps just a software upgrade even, as the DACs themselves are built to handle resolutions/speeds much higher than currently existing. Same for dCS, and other manufacturers adopting the modular approach. That is completely counter to what the video industry wants. You want 4K? Gotta buy a new box.
The whole video industry makes sure that processors become irrelevant year after year, and force you into dubious hardware upgrades.
High-end DACs were more like the PC industry, where every X amount of years, you'd upgrade your DAC in order to get the "better chip". Unlike PCs though, you couldn't just pop in the new chip into your old DAC, you had to sell your old and buy the new.
Now, with modular, open designs, that is not the case anymore. If you buy one such DAC, it is as future proof as your amp. Or your speakers. It'll last as long as the manufacturer lasts, and provides new modules for it.
If an MQA 2.0 comes up, I'm sure MSB will provide the new appropriate modules, perhaps just a software upgrade even, as the DACs themselves are built to handle resolutions/speeds much higher than currently existing. Same for dCS, and other manufacturers adopting the modular approach. That is completely counter to what the video industry wants. You want 4K? Gotta buy a new box.
Hi,
Is it possible to play MQA with MSB Signature or Diamond DAC which was also modular and future proof? Is there an upgrade module for it? Or is the module only available for the new DACs?
It's not a trick question I really don't know the answer. If the answer is YES, I'll believe MSB with their future proof claim. If not then MSB's previous 50K DAC is not really future proof. (Just like all other DACs)
Yes, it is:
http://www.msbtechnology.com/renderer-rev2/
Back when that DAC platform (DAC IV) was created, MQA didn't exist, and wouldn't exist for years. And yet, there it is.
This is the critical point. Many manufacturers knew about DAC chips fast obsolescence and had modular approaches in their DACs. Even my old Metronome C2A was modular, and the manufacturer could easily change the DAC board - it was written in the specifications. But they decided not to do so, and introduced a new model. Most of the time the market asks for new models, and manufacturers sometimes must follow market trends if they want to last. Do you know the joke of the only guy of the platoon that was marching in step?
IMHO what sells high-price DACs is mostly the perceived sound quality and dealer/distributor support.
Thanks. This is very good. I really like my dCS but I had to upgrade to a new model just to play MQA and I felt I shouldn't at this price level.
I respect other people opinion on reviewers - in this hobby one man's meat is another man's poison - and normally would not care about your comment. But since you could not resist putting me in it , I will add that I think that comparing reviews are usually even more misleading than single reviews. I am fortunate that Jacob Heilbrunn shares some of my preferences and music culture, and I can enjoy a lot his reviews that are real high-end articles, not boxing reports. Besides, he adds new music to each of his reviews, and not always the same frayed recordings ...
BTW1, JH often compares to other equipment, correlating it with preference.
BTW2, nice to see you know JH has a dCS and that you even spell it correctly - dCS - I almost feel guilty of usually writing it hastly as DCS ...
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I am wondering about that. This is what I could find on the MSB website:
"MSB thrives off the innovation required to meet consumer demands. We’re constantly improving digital input modules to stay at the forefront of the high-end audio industry, ensuring you’re always equipped with the most current digital file formats and interfaces. Focusing on our network renderer and USB input, your audio tech will be on the cutting edge. Put simply, your DAC is ready for the future."
And:
"Upgrading from the Base Output Module will give you a cutting edge constant impedance passive volume control preamp. Using this remarkable preamp will reduce system complexity and ultimately improve the audio quality of your entire system. It’s a remarkable feat of electrical design that sets a new benchmark in the industry. The output modules are individually tuned for maximum quality balance or single-ended audio."
***
All this does not suggest that the heart of the DAC, where the data conversion takes place, is upgradable with a module.
I am wondering if MSB has a policy like Schiit, the manufacturer of my Yggdrasil DAC. In that DAC everything is upgradable. There has been an upgrade of the USB board, but the newest upgrade from Yggdrasil version 1 to Yggdrasil version 2 is the heart of the DAC itself (D to A conversion) plus the output stage, an upgrade that costs more than 4 times less than a brand new box.
Would in a similar case an MSB DAC be upgradable as well, or would you still have to buy a new box?
You can save your sarcasm, Keith. Or are the modules, the power supplies and the clocks all the "upgradability" that you get with MSB?
I represent MSB and I wish to clarify exactly what is upgradable in all of our current DACs so there is no ambiguity or confusion (Discrete DAC, Premier DAC, Reference DAC and Select DAC).
Software is all independently upgradeable via user installed firmware upgrades. This includes the user interface processor, Digital Core Engine, FPGA based digital processor and supplemental processors located in input modules such as the computer in the Renderer Input or the USB module processor. Input modules are all upgradable in all products (tool less lever) except the built in S/PDIF inputs on the discrete DAC (there are still two upgradable slots on the discrete DAC however). The clock modules in all products except the Discrete DAC are upgradable (requires tools, Premier DAC is tool less). The DAC modules in all products are upgradable, replaceable modules (requires tools). The output modules which in all products are user upgradable (tool less lever). The power supplies are external for all our DACs so those are upgradable as well.
Our 25 years of DAC design and manufacturing experience we have found that it is primarily input and format compatibility that makes DACs “age” so we made the software and input modules the most easily upgradable parts of our current DACs. We spent a lot of effort to make the input module replacement as painless as possible. A user can simply power the DAC off, pull out locking lever, pull out the module, insert a new module, push in the locking lever and power up the DAC. We found that some types of input modules also can also suffer a higher than average failure rate due to “tweaks” like custom USB cables that can damage USB receiver chips. It is much easier to ship a new module to a customer than have them send their whole DAC back to us for repair. We also found that developing multiple versions of each new input was wasting a lot of design effort (especially the design of complex inputs like the Renderer) so we standardized on one extremely capable input module format across all of our product levels. It was one of the major reasons we recently completely revamped our product lineup. The modular input design also allows up to optimize each input for the best noise isolation, best data recovery and lowest jitter possible for each input format.
We write all of our software in house and we are constantly improving and refining the software for all of our DACs. Improvements to the user interface and input module support are the most common but improvements to the core digital processing and software configurable DAC modules are released at least once a year as well.
There are some limitations to the basic hardware on all of these DACs without motherboard and DAC replacement (which is possible). They have been designed to anticipate future trends as much as possible to ensure the longest life span out of these DACs as possible. The DACs, Core Engine and input module slots support multibit PCM of up to 32 bits and up to 6Mhz sample rate. The DACs, Core Engine and input module slots support Native DSD to DSD 16x (DSD 1024). Multibit Delta Sigma (2, 4 and 6 bit) is also natively supported to 12.288Mhz sample rates even though this is not a currently an available format. Input modules each have a varying capability that is dependent upon reliable support of each format. For example S/PDIF is limited to 24 bits and 192Khz PCM sample rates (good for 1x DSD also). Our current renderer supports PCM at 32bit resolution and 768Khz sample rates (good for 4x DSD also). Our Pro ISL input is our most capable current input and supports 32bit PCM resolution at up to 3Mhz sample rates (good for 16x DSD also).
Software is all independently upgradeable via user installed firmware upgrades. This includes the user interface processor, Digital Core Engine, FPGA based digital processor and supplemental processors located in input modules such as the computer in the Renderer Input or the USB module processor. Input modules are all upgradable in all products (tool less lever) except the built in S/PDIF inputs on the discrete DAC (there are still two upgradable slots on the discrete DAC however). The clock modules in all products except the Discrete DAC are upgradable (requires tools, Premier DAC is tool less). The DAC modules in all products are upgradable, replaceable modules (requires tools). The output modules which in all products are user upgradable (tool less lever). The power supplies are external for all our DACs so those are upgradable as well.
Our 25 years of DAC design and manufacturing experience we have found that it is primarily input and format compatibility that makes DACs “age” so we made the software and input modules the most easily upgradable parts of our current DACs. We spent a lot of effort to make the input module replacement as painless as possible. A user can simply power the DAC off, pull out locking lever, pull out the module, insert a new module, push in the locking lever and power up the DAC. We found that some types of input modules also can also suffer a higher than average failure rate due to “tweaks” like custom USB cables that can damage USB receiver chips. It is much easier to ship a new module to a customer than have them send their whole DAC back to us for repair. We also found that developing multiple versions of each new input was wasting a lot of design effort (especially the design of complex inputs like the Renderer) so we standardized on one extremely capable input module format across all of our product levels. It was one of the major reasons we recently completely revamped our product lineup. The modular input design also allows up to optimize each input for the best noise isolation, best data recovery and lowest jitter possible for each input format.
We write all of our software in house and we are constantly improving and refining the software for all of our DACs. Improvements to the user interface and input module support are the most common but improvements to the core digital processing and software configurable DAC modules are released at least once a year as well.
There are some limitations to the basic hardware on all of these DACs without motherboard and DAC replacement (which is possible). They have been designed to anticipate future trends as much as possible to ensure the longest life span out of these DACs as possible. The DACs, Core Engine and input module slots support multibit PCM of up to 32 bits and up to 6Mhz sample rate. The DACs, Core Engine and input module slots support Native DSD to DSD 16x (DSD 1024). Multibit Delta Sigma (2, 4 and 6 bit) is also natively supported to 12.288Mhz sample rates even though this is not a currently an available format. Input modules each have a varying capability that is dependent upon reliable support of each format. For example S/PDIF is limited to 24 bits and 192Khz PCM sample rates (good for 1x DSD also). Our current renderer supports PCM at 32bit resolution and 768Khz sample rates (good for 4x DSD also). Our Pro ISL input is our most capable current input and supports 32bit PCM resolution at up to 3Mhz sample rates (good for 16x DSD also).
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