That's fine if it wasn't for you, congratulations on your purchase I hope you get many years enjoyment from it, afterall, that is what we want from this hobby...
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- Thread starter Ron Resnick
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That's fine if it wasn't for you, congratulations on your purchase I hope you get many years enjoyment from it, afterall, that is what we want from this hobby...
No I personally find this more true in analog, I am quite satisfied leaving the better on the table. In other stuff not always. not only is the more expensive stuff not necessarily good, but when it is, I walk away unhappy that I did not have more money
I smile at the idea of deciding on a format ie analog or digital, and ploughing 100% of funds and blood, sweat & tears into said chosen option.
There are analog guys who can't even decide on sticking w one tt/arm/cart/phono/tape deck.
The digital devotees have it "easy" LOL in comparison.
There are analog guys who can't even decide on sticking w one tt/arm/cart/phono/tape deck.
The digital devotees have it "easy" LOL in comparison.
It si known since long that no one can teach people who do not want to learn ...
Yes, I see after many decades in audio you have not heard proper horns and comment analog sounds equal to digital, gave up trying to teach you.
Never in my life said that analog sounds equal to digital, they sound different. Please try to be factual, even when teasing!
And fortunately proper horns means good sounding horns, not horns blessed by some WBF members, and I had the pleasure of listening to them several times, the last one three weeks ago ... But you have a point, I have not yet had in my listening room the proper horns ...
ok- will summarize, but I'm not really going to debate this further.
I've heard the Golden Gate, twice, on Salk and Tidal speakers respectfully at THE Show as well as a lower dac at my dealer as I recall who got a trade-in. You can ask Fred Ainsley what tubes he uses at shows. I have never been convinced enough to ask him for a home demo. As I recall the best performance was on the Salk speakers (which were unfamiliar) unlike the others.
I don't like SET amps - I've owned 300Bs, 845s, 211s, etc. I've rolled tubes in all of them. I've also had MHDT tube dacs in my system - and disliked them. I've owned Quad amps with 5U4G rectifiers - and rolled a number of those as well. I've rolled 274Bs in Melody amps so have experience there. So I consider myself pretty well versed in DHT and rectifier tube-land.
While that may all be empirical, I have a fundamental issue with DHT in a source - I'd rather see it in a preamp so that my analog rig can also be used with it. My current system uses a TVC to a 2 tube per side PP tube amp - so is in the opposite direction.
I have virtually no DSD - which is Lampis strong suit.
Finally, i like MSB's approach to flexibility and upgradability - and at this price level, I put a big value on that. The other dac that I find most interesting is the TotalDac which John Devore himself uses.
As an aside, I recently read Matt off A'gon's "review" of the latest 7 dac and it seemed similar to what I've heard before - he's a R2R guy with a Davinci2. He's been auditioning dacs for 4 years and his write-ups have been quite nice to read for an amateur. I don't treat him as an expert, but at least he has detailed experience.
No, I always heard PCM on the Lampi and also used PCM on my compares. It also does good DSD, sometimes even better, but does not mean I am bothered. Doing one well does not negate another. Larry Toy, who owns 15000 original Decca and EMI, rips them (set up by professional guidance) and plays back 24x192 PCM, PM him on feedback compared to the originals. And dctom has it next to a kuzma xl4 with kuzma 4p, Atlas, Ypsilon. There are enough high quality analog compares here.
Anyway, I did not want to bring Lampi into this thread, but lets be clear when mentioned like this that a show demo is no demo. There is, basically, no demo here that I can read in what you have mentioned. THE, and extrapolation from SET amps.
Anyway, I did not want to bring Lampi into this thread, but lets be clear when mentioned like this that a show demo is no demo. There is, basically, no demo here that I can read in what you have mentioned. THE, and extrapolation from SET amps.
That's fine - like i said, from what I've heard there wasn't enough to justify a home demo and one was at a dealer. Ironic as all of your compares are not in familiar systems and essentially using mosaic theory. Let's just agree to disagree.
Agreed, except when the show demo sounds excellent, which is rarely but sometimes the case. Bad or mediocre sound in a show never counts, since the lack of quality can have many, often trivial reasons. Only good show sound ever counts.
Peter,
In order to assess differences the way you want it, I'd need the exact same source material. That's why I exposed that problem via the anecdote.
Now, if we're not being purely scientific, and we're just measuring how comfortable we are when listening to each, with a myriad of different recordings, there is no difference. Both a SELECT and our analog rig will give you the same amount of comfort and satisfaction, with different recordings of various provenances. And I'm not taking into account the extra convenience the digital allows...
The best way to "understand" what the MSBs do is to listen to one. No amount of buzz and posting, here and elsewhere, got Ron to listen to the SELECT at Mike's. But fortunately he was able to listen here, being the kind soul he is, as a favor to Keith
Oh, prices. The MSB prices are up on their website. The complete Bergmann + tonearm is $35k, the cartridge is $15k and the phono $29k.
Thanks Alex. I was simply interested in your general impressions about the differences. Nothing scientific. Just general impressions similar to those that we all give around here on components we hear in various settings. No big deal. I am surprised that you write there is no difference. I have always heard a difference between vinyl and digital, understanding full well that recordings are different, masterings, systems etc. Just general impressions. I also know and have heard recent digital and it has really improved, so I am optimistic about the direction the technology is going.
Looks like the vinyl front end is about $80K. I think the digital is more. I don't know what you mean by comfort and satisfaction. I'm sure each is good and has many satisfied owners. Personally, I have no plans to get into digital at this time. I enjoy it in other people's systems, and I know it is constantly improving. I'm simply interested in keeping abreast of how the latest technology sounds and remain open minded. I enjoyed hearing a dCS Vivaldi and Rossini very much. A friend sold his Vivaldi for a Yggy DAC and another friend has one of those which sounds very good. I'm sure the MSB sounds different, though I won't know which I prefer until I hear and compare them in the same system.
If I ever visit Ron in LA, I'll be sure to try to stop by your shop. I've heard a lot of good things. Congratulations.
Well, you asked for a general impression, and I gave it
Without "overthinking", both sources are truly capable of awe-inspiring performances. I might get killed for this, but once you have good vinyl as a reference, indeed most digital will remind you that you're listening to digital, and there will always be a difference. Even MSB's previous generation DACS (IV, V, etc.). And, again, if your reference is vinyl, that difference is likely not going to be for the better (to your ears).
That's why listening to the SELECT was such a groundbreaking moment in my life. All of a sudden, it was not "digital", not even "good digital". There was no difference. It was something else. As I said earlier, for all the buzz and words that get written online, one can only appreciate what these DACs do by listening to them, properly set up, in a synergistic system. So I truly hope you can come over at some point and get a good listen, as your reference, like Ron's, is vinyl, and it'd be interesting to see what you think!
cheers,
alex
Well, you asked for a general impression, and I gave it
I might get killed for this, but once you have good vinyl as a reference, indeed most digital will remind you that you're listening to digital, and there will always be a difference. Even MSB's previous generation DACS (IV, V, etc.). And, again, if your reference is vinyl, that difference is likely not going to be for the better (to your ears).
That's why listening to the SELECT was such a groundbreaking moment in my life. All of a sudden, it was not "digital", not even "good digital". There was no difference. It was something else. As I said earlier, for all the buzz and words that get written online, one can only appreciate what these DACs do by listening to them, properly set up, in a synergistic system. So I truly hope you can come over at some point and get a good listen, as your reference, like Ron's, is vinyl, and it'd be interesting to see what you think!
cheers,
alex
Peter,
obviously I have written lots about my impressions of the MSB Select II in my system. but just a word about it being 'something else' as Alex mentions above.
it's not vinyl, and it's not digital. i'd say it's closer to vinyl than to even very good digital......mostly in the sense of tonal solidity and continuousness. it also has that expansive sort of sound that vinyl has with none of the flatness of most digital, if not quite to the degree. it's more like tape in it's overall balance and lack of any stress or hardness. over these last months I've continuously been impressed by piano sound from the MSB Select II which holds it's own with analog piano as I've heard it.
vinyl and tape go further overall into the experiential side of musical reproduction.....they pull me into the emotional side of music more deeply. but whatever it is i'm hearing from the Select II as it's tuned currently for my system it checks all the boxes for me.
YMMV and just my 2 cents. i'd say my comments only pertain to my system......but most of what I wrote was relevant to my audio show encounters with the Select II too. I've not spent quality time with all the top digital contenders.....maybe others get into this music reproduction realm. but if they do I've not heard that.
I've now heard the best digital in my experience by a country mile.
The Aqua Formula XHD off SGM2015 server at all the correct sampling rates and filters, thru a very expressive AG Duos horns/bespoke 45 tubes amps rig.
In the past, digital would tick a handful of boxes, analog matching these and trumping digital on the rest.
W this set up, 9 out of 10 analog boxes were matched or exceeded.
But one important box remains the domain of analog, and I believe will be in perpetuity, and is the one that gives away the game that one is listening to digital.
It's this feel of elasticity that the best analog has. Live music never feels metronomic or overly tight. Yes, the musicians are tight to each other, but precise time also breathes when heard live.
This digital rig still had that tightness I've always heard in digital, as analog in this respect still feels closer to the real thing.
But in the other aspects that analog used to exclusively be king at ie tone, timbre, and esp continuousness, the Aqua rig I heard is up there w the best analog, maybe a little beyond too.
The Aqua Formula XHD off SGM2015 server at all the correct sampling rates and filters, thru a very expressive AG Duos horns/bespoke 45 tubes amps rig.
In the past, digital would tick a handful of boxes, analog matching these and trumping digital on the rest.
W this set up, 9 out of 10 analog boxes were matched or exceeded.
But one important box remains the domain of analog, and I believe will be in perpetuity, and is the one that gives away the game that one is listening to digital.
It's this feel of elasticity that the best analog has. Live music never feels metronomic or overly tight. Yes, the musicians are tight to each other, but precise time also breathes when heard live.
This digital rig still had that tightness I've always heard in digital, as analog in this respect still feels closer to the real thing.
But in the other aspects that analog used to exclusively be king at ie tone, timbre, and esp continuousness, the Aqua rig I heard is up there w the best analog, maybe a little beyond too.
I'm glad you liked the Aqua. As you know, they're our 2nd line of digital products, along with MSB, and we like them very much
But if you have the chance, you (or the owner of that system) should try an MSB Reference.
cheers,
alex
But if you have the chance, you (or the owner of that system) should try an MSB Reference.
cheers,
alex
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