Alex, I was just adding to the step change Ron now has on digital. I have no doubts I'd love MSB.
Visit to Alma Music and Audio
- Thread starter Ron Resnick
- Start date
Great to hear about the Aqua performance, Marc. As for the last domain of analog superiority in your view, do you mean what many would call rhythm & timing?
Al, Im really not sure what it is. I think its still the tendency for even an amazing dac like the Aqua to emphasise the leading edge of notes more than analog, w the latter better at the body, swell, and decay of notes.
Now at Barry's, these attributes of the Aqua are amazing too, leading to this greater sense of organicness and continuousness that I've never heard in other digital before, and really cast a spell on me.
But something about that emphasis of the leading edge doesn't equate to what I hear at live classical, and injects the merest hint of dissonance that reminds me I'm still listening to digital.
Hey, I'm uber splitting very fine hairs here, this Aqua experience was a real eye opener for me, to get the holistic continuousness thing other than from analog is a massive step forward
Now at Barry's, these attributes of the Aqua are amazing too, leading to this greater sense of organicness and continuousness that I've never heard in other digital before, and really cast a spell on me.
But something about that emphasis of the leading edge doesn't equate to what I hear at live classical, and injects the merest hint of dissonance that reminds me I'm still listening to digital.
Hey, I'm uber splitting very fine hairs here, this Aqua experience was a real eye opener for me, to get the holistic continuousness thing other than from analog is a massive step forward
Marc, that's an interesting observation about the leading edge. It depends on where you sit in the concert hall. If you sit further away, the leading edge is less pronounced, if you sit close to the musicians, the leading edge can be very pronounced. Remember that in a recording the mikes are often close to the stage, or there is even close miking of instruments.
It is also interesting that sometimes the leading edges of instruments on stage vary greatly. For example, I like to go to avant-garde concerts with small ensembles, and I sit usually close to the stage. Many instruments have an energetic leading edge, but piano, which is commonly further back on the stage in such ensembles, has in such a situation often soft, rounded transients. It is clearly a function of distance.
In solo concerts of piano in small halls, where I sit close to the instrument, the transients are often very pronounced.
So if I hear strong leading edges of instruments on recordings through digital, I am not disturbed the least. I don't think it has anything to do with the medium, at least when reproduction is of sufficient quality with a minimum of artifacts. I hear the same from some vinyl records as well, by the way.
It is also interesting that sometimes the leading edges of instruments on stage vary greatly. For example, I like to go to avant-garde concerts with small ensembles, and I sit usually close to the stage. Many instruments have an energetic leading edge, but piano, which is commonly further back on the stage in such ensembles, has in such a situation often soft, rounded transients. It is clearly a function of distance.
In solo concerts of piano in small halls, where I sit close to the instrument, the transients are often very pronounced.
So if I hear strong leading edges of instruments on recordings through digital, I am not disturbed the least. I don't think it has anything to do with the medium, at least when reproduction is of sufficient quality with a minimum of artifacts. I hear the same from some vinyl records as well, by the way.
That is a good synopsis, Al. All reasons why you and I agree there is no "absolute" sound, but rather a range of sounds that we hear live in different settings and distances, as you point out. This range forms our impressions of what a particular instrument can sound like.
Al,
And you make an interesting observation too!! I think I just learned something valuable about recordings that in the past I might not have attributed to a recording. Thanks.
Yes, Peter, it is about a range of sounds within which reproduction should lie if it is to sound convincing relative to the real thing.
I am glad that Marc brought up the comparison to unamplified live music. The only way to have a reasonable debate analog vs. digital is with the real thing as a reference; this is also usually the way we conduct the discussions within our Boston group. Unfortunately, many analog vs. digital debates in the past have been carried out without this reference. Then it becomes merely a matter of preference, to which I say, so what?
As I see it, lesser digital tends to overemphasize attack on notes relative to sustain and decay. Lesser analog tends to overemphasize sustain and decay over attack.
Great analog like yours and that of the others in our Boston group gets also the attack phase of notes right, and great digital gets sustain and decay right. Both media then happily meet in the middle, perhaps from different directions, to both sound more like the real thing.
You're welcome, GSOphile. Certainly what I said does not hold for all recordings, but I do think for a good number of them.
I should add that hearing the leading edge is of course not just a matter of distance from the performers, but rather a function of both distance and hall acoustics which can add in complex ways. Also, not all instruments are affected in the same way by distance to the listener in terms of their sound of the leading edge. For example, metallic percussion tends to be less affected in that manner than piano.
Today I accompanied Keith back to Alma to compare the Hailey 2 to to the Sonja 2.2.
The Sonja 2.2 is now one of my favorite dynamic driver speakers. I personally never really focused on driver coherency (as someone who owned MartinLogan hybrid speakers for about 23 years obviously driver discontinuity was not a big concern of mine), but I now understand why people who value coherency like YG speakers.
I found the speakers to be transparent and dynamic and neutral, but not cold-sounding. Still, I would infuse the system with as many tubes as possible (but that is just me, as I prefer a tonal balance slightly warmer than dead neutral).
Keith and I have a mutual friend who is a professional reviewer. This fellow has both Wilson Audio Alexxes and Sonja 2.3s. I officially prefer the YGs.
Alex was driving the Sonjas very properly with 400 watts of D’Agostino solid-state amplification. These speakers are yet another example of a situation where you cannot skimp on power. If 50 watts is not doing the job do not assume that 150 watts is going to do the job. These speakers need power: high power tubes, high power solid-state or high power hybrid. I would not hesitate to say that ARC REF 750s or VAC 450s or VTL Siegfried IIs are the right and ideal all-tube amps for these speakers.
Keith does not want to deal with high-power, all-tube amps, so my recommendation to him is Lamm M2.2s or, at a friendlier price point, Aesthetix Atlas Eclipse Monos. I would also add the matching line stage of whichever of these amps one chooses.
I found the 30% or so price difference of the Sonja over the Hailey 2 to be a very good value given that Keith and I both felt the increase in sound quality was 50% to 75%.
On my Chesky reissue of Leinsdorf’s Pictures at an Exhibition, I felt that the Hailey 2 simply did not have enough driver surface area to begin to do justice to the complex instrumentation and dynamics of “Great Gates of Kiev.” Even though the Sonja does not have that much more driver surface area than the Hailey 2 somehow there was a big increase in sonic ease and dynamic capability. Alex credits the bigger cabinet and double box design of the Sonja.
If Keith stays with dynamic driver speakers I believe the Sonja 2.2s are the speakers he will buy. I also like very much the fact that the Sonja gets you YG’s top-of-the-line midrange - tweeter - midrange module. And if Keith moves to a bigger room he can upgrade the speaker simply by adding an additional woofer module to create a Sonja 2.3.
As always Alex was a patient and incredibly gracious Master of Ceremonies! Oh and I got to play a bit with the Bergmann Odin tonearm I am ordering.
PS1: I would love to hear the Rockport Technologies Altair IIs driven by these same amplifiers for a closer direct comparison. Keith has heard the Rockports driven by 50 watts Class A and 150 watts class AB, but I don’t think that is nearly enough power for them. Karim of Absolare uses 350 watts and Andy Payor uses 400 watts on the bigger Rockports.
PS2: What I heard today makes me very curious to ask owners of Magico speakers if they auditioned comparable YG speakers before purchasing their Magicos. PeterA? MadFloyd?
The Sonja 2.2 is now one of my favorite dynamic driver speakers. I personally never really focused on driver coherency (as someone who owned MartinLogan hybrid speakers for about 23 years obviously driver discontinuity was not a big concern of mine), but I now understand why people who value coherency like YG speakers.
I found the speakers to be transparent and dynamic and neutral, but not cold-sounding. Still, I would infuse the system with as many tubes as possible (but that is just me, as I prefer a tonal balance slightly warmer than dead neutral).
Keith and I have a mutual friend who is a professional reviewer. This fellow has both Wilson Audio Alexxes and Sonja 2.3s. I officially prefer the YGs.
Alex was driving the Sonjas very properly with 400 watts of D’Agostino solid-state amplification. These speakers are yet another example of a situation where you cannot skimp on power. If 50 watts is not doing the job do not assume that 150 watts is going to do the job. These speakers need power: high power tubes, high power solid-state or high power hybrid. I would not hesitate to say that ARC REF 750s or VAC 450s or VTL Siegfried IIs are the right and ideal all-tube amps for these speakers.
Keith does not want to deal with high-power, all-tube amps, so my recommendation to him is Lamm M2.2s or, at a friendlier price point, Aesthetix Atlas Eclipse Monos. I would also add the matching line stage of whichever of these amps one chooses.
I found the 30% or so price difference of the Sonja over the Hailey 2 to be a very good value given that Keith and I both felt the increase in sound quality was 50% to 75%.
On my Chesky reissue of Leinsdorf’s Pictures at an Exhibition, I felt that the Hailey 2 simply did not have enough driver surface area to begin to do justice to the complex instrumentation and dynamics of “Great Gates of Kiev.” Even though the Sonja does not have that much more driver surface area than the Hailey 2 somehow there was a big increase in sonic ease and dynamic capability. Alex credits the bigger cabinet and double box design of the Sonja.
If Keith stays with dynamic driver speakers I believe the Sonja 2.2s are the speakers he will buy. I also like very much the fact that the Sonja gets you YG’s top-of-the-line midrange - tweeter - midrange module. And if Keith moves to a bigger room he can upgrade the speaker simply by adding an additional woofer module to create a Sonja 2.3.
As always Alex was a patient and incredibly gracious Master of Ceremonies! Oh and I got to play a bit with the Bergmann Odin tonearm I am ordering.
PS1: I would love to hear the Rockport Technologies Altair IIs driven by these same amplifiers for a closer direct comparison. Keith has heard the Rockports driven by 50 watts Class A and 150 watts class AB, but I don’t think that is nearly enough power for them. Karim of Absolare uses 350 watts and Andy Payor uses 400 watts on the bigger Rockports.
PS2: What I heard today makes me very curious to ask owners of Magico speakers if they auditioned comparable YG speakers before purchasing their Magicos. PeterA? MadFloyd?
Last edited:
Thanks for the visit, Ron! It's always a pleasure having you and Keith over!
The Hailey 2.2 are brand new speakers, and even though the breaking in process was well under way (some 200 hours), I believe it'll open up more and play with a little more ease with another 100 hours or so. But when Keith suggested a visit, I felt they were "good enough" for a demo
Sonja 2.2 is a more elaborate speaker, with a box-in-a-box construction, and that extra midrange driver in MTM config, as you saw. The bass module also has more internal area, which helps.
In our 30 x 27 room, you do need power, there's no getting around that. But we've set up all sorts of YGs in smaller to medium size rooms, and around 100W will do the trick nicely. But of course, having extra headroom is a beautiful thing, and the YGs (and the listener!) will appreciate it!
I've heard big tubes with YG, and it is indeed lovely. With "just" 180W, the Air Tight ATM-2001S is a fantastic match, and to this day, we have clients that swear that it was the best system they've heard here!
We'll have the new Hailey 2.2 at Axpona next month, for folks that would like to experience them, with the very same turntable Ron heard here.
The Hailey 2.2 are brand new speakers, and even though the breaking in process was well under way (some 200 hours), I believe it'll open up more and play with a little more ease with another 100 hours or so. But when Keith suggested a visit, I felt they were "good enough" for a demo
Sonja 2.2 is a more elaborate speaker, with a box-in-a-box construction, and that extra midrange driver in MTM config, as you saw. The bass module also has more internal area, which helps.
In our 30 x 27 room, you do need power, there's no getting around that. But we've set up all sorts of YGs in smaller to medium size rooms, and around 100W will do the trick nicely. But of course, having extra headroom is a beautiful thing, and the YGs (and the listener!) will appreciate it!
I've heard big tubes with YG, and it is indeed lovely. With "just" 180W, the Air Tight ATM-2001S is a fantastic match, and to this day, we have clients that swear that it was the best system they've heard here!
We'll have the new Hailey 2.2 at Axpona next month, for folks that would like to experience them, with the very same turntable Ron heard here.
Thank you for the clarifications, Alex! Your listening room is so fantastic!
I should also mention that the Air Tight Opus 1 cartridge never fails to sound great!
I should also mention that the Air Tight Opus 1 cartridge never fails to sound great!
Last edited:
Thanks Ron for your review of the Sonja 2.2. They are in my top two for dynamic speakers under $100K, along with my Vandersteen 7 Mk2.
I have listened to the Sonja many times, whether it was the 1.2, 1.3, 2.2, Anniversary XV or Anniversary XV Junior version. What I like best about the 2.2 is the intimacy and cohesiveness it provides compared to the taller versions and multi-towered versions of the Sonja.
The Sonja 2.2 is one of the most neutral speakers on the market today. They truly just step out of the way and let the listener focus on the music. The aluminum frame reinforced silk dome tweeter delivers treble with a wonderful ease, almost never edgy or sibilant. The midrange just gets the timbres right with amazing transparency. The bass, while it doesn’t deliver a visceral slam due to its sealed cabinet, goes very deep and offers great speed, articulation and texture.
The bottom line is I love the sound of the Sonja 2.2. My favorite type of amp with them are warm sounding solid state Class A monoblocks but many types of amps will work well as long as they have sufficient power.
Best,
Ken
Very prescient, like the MI6 https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/keithrs-dream-speaker-search.27069/page-3#post-547329
My main thought on this spkr is how high the tweeter is situated. It's 51" high in total, other spkrs of similar height have the tweeter a little lower, unless I'm mistaken.
At a normal seating position, do the tweeters sit at ear level?
At a normal seating position, do the tweeters sit at ear level?
...Bodhi?
I auditioned the comparably priced Hailey 1.2 when I was considering the S5 Mk2's. What I liked about the Hailey - their speed, transparency, coherency, stage width & punchy bass. I also admired their Lexus-like build quality. What I didn't like - whilst the bass went deep, I preferred the S5 Mk2's bass which moved more air, had more texture & was better controlled. I also felt the Hailey (whilst much improved from models like the Kipod) didn't sound as natural/organic as the Magico's. I suspect the ForgeCore tweeter was likely the main culprit.
In the end, I clearly preferred the S5 Mk2's which I thought were the more 'complete' speaker and a better value at their price point, so they came home with me. That said, If I were choosing between the Magico M3 and YG Sonja 2.2, given a suitable size room, I would go for the Sonja 2.2's every time.
Last edited:
Ron, I did not give YG serious consideration before I bought my two pairs of Magico speakers. I bought the Magico Mini 2 after having owned Eggleston Rosa for five years. I auditioned the Mini 2 in three different dealer showrooms. YG did not have a comparable stand mounted speaker at that time, nor was I aware of any dealers around me.
I first heard YG speakers at RMAF I believe in 2010 and did not like the sound of the system in which they were shown. Ithink it was a small floor stander around $20K, perhaps the Carmel model. While owning the Mini 2, I had heard the Q3 at my local dealership a few times. When an opportunity to buy a used Q3 inspected and shipped directly from the factory for $17K presented itself, I jumped on it. I was given as much time as needed to audition it in my home, so there was no obligation to buy it unless I was completely satisfied. It was too good an opportunity to pass up.
I don't have enough experience hearing YG speakers to have an opinion about their sound. Of course I am curious about the brand. The models that are being discussed in this thread I think cost a lot more than $17K. I think the Hailey 1.2 is around $42K. I'd like to hear the Hailey Sonja properly set up and may have that opportunity when I visit Alex this Spring. I suspect the Hailey would be the appropriate size for my room, but I am completely satisfied with the Q3s for now. And people like Kedar keep suggesting that I should hear more horns and consider something beyond the box/cone typology. So who knows what the future will bring?
Last edited:
I think I heard the same pair of YGs that Peter did (at RMAF) and I remember a very cold metallic sound. However, in subsequent years I heard them a few times, setup by GTT Audio and loved them. There isn't a dealer in my neck of the woods so I never got as familiar with them as Magicos, but like Magico they are a sealed cabinet with very low distortion and I value that.
Bazelio, it's always fun spending other people's money LOL. Too bad Keith has to write the cheque.
Similar threads
