Visit to Avantgarde Acoustic Factory

[thedudeabides]

Those who are reading this review should note that Ron switches himself off on SS and digital, and turns himself back on when LP and valves are playing.

How sad. So limiting.

 

[microstrip]

Well, Trios can be called efficient when compared to MBLs but not vintage horns. A single sensitivity figure can be deceiving you really need a full frequency range chart plotting the impedence to understand what you're dealing with. The Lamm 18w SETs are borderline with the Trios and imo still insufficient. High quality push/pull tubes and ss will give you a more even sound with the Trios, choice of which is personal good tube amps are very quiet these days. I'm surprised about the 9w amps used in the factory, they can't drive Trios nor any other modern speaker that I know of.

david

As far as I remember the Trio's have an high impedance - around 20 ohm. Most low power modern tube amplifiers do not have 16 ohm taps, and will run out of steam trying to put power in this high load. Did anyone try driving them with OTLs, such as Atmasphere? It seems a perfect electrical match.

 

[Blue58]

As far as I remember the Trio's have an high impedance - around 20 ohm. Most low power modern tube amplifiers do not have 16 ohm taps, and will run out of steam trying to put power in this high load. Did anyone try driving them with OTLs, such as Atmasphere? It seems a perfect electrical match.

Duo Omega 16ohm driven from 8ohm taps on 45 SET here no problem. However the 'overall' impedance is never given by AG as far as I know (could be a lot lower in reality) plus ultimate max volume here was a touch below Ron's expectations. And it was almost all digital!

Blue58

 

[KeithR]

Where did I say it was? I am quite clear - full range horns, followed by panels, no boxes.

bc its doubtful you'll end up buying any of them. i think you just enjoy the hunt

 

[bonzo75]

bc its doubtful you'll end up buying any of them. i think you just enjoy the hunt

I have always maintained that I split this into 3 hobbies: 1. Music 2. Auditioning 3. Building my own system

So there is no hunt. One is the act of figuring out what works for me, what doesn't. Most systems teach you something, either by showing you what you like, or what you don't. Another is the act of buying which follows the learning and is limited by budget and space, both of which improve over the long term. Fyi, I already had panels. Full range horns are not easy to buy

 

[ddk]

As far as I remember the Trio's have an high impedance - around 20 ohm. Most low power modern tube amplifiers do not have 16 ohm taps, and will run out of steam trying to put power in this high load. Did anyone try driving them with OTLs, such as Atmasphere? It seems a perfect electrical match.

I took a couple or Trios in trade in the past, don't know anything about their published impedance but they came to life and had better coherence with around 100 watts.

ddk

 

[bonzo75]

19 ohm impedance, 27 ohm midrange, 17 ohm tweeter, given in their spec sheet on the website

 

[ddk]

You want the bass crossover at 200Hz. No TAD compression driver will operate there. They are happier above 800Hz Precious few compression drivers will work to 200 Hz. Most of these are defunct; JBL 2485,2482,JBL 2490, an Emilar model and the Altec 290 Giant Voice(290) plus some exotic,fragile,hellishly expensive ALE and Goto models. Avantgarde (and Magico) solve this problem by using cone drivers in a small rear chamber for the 200-1000Hz range.Further problem with most of these compression drivers are the small mouths on the drivers,needing excessively long midbass horns. This will make time alignment very difficult in the most critical frequency band. Time alignment at lower than 250Hz is not important( up to a point )but above that frequency it is critical and becomes more so the higher up in frequency you go.

Do you know which Altec or JBL speaker made actually crossed over at 200hz, all the ones I know were at 500hz or 800hz?

I agree that horns have a shallower sound stage than conventional speakers/QUOTE][/B]

Horns will image holographically once they are time aligned and in a vertical array.Room treatment is beneficial but totally different areas need to be adressed than the usual.As horns are controlled directivity devices they throw a more focussed soundfield and if correctly aligned will have superb soundstaging but in a limited listening area. The bigger the system the smaller the sweetspot,just like electrostats.

Agreed, the images can be holographic but without the exaggerated depth of other types, it can come across as shallow if one isn't used to horns.

david

 

[marslo]

Duo Omega 16ohm driven from 8ohm taps on 45 SET here no problem. However the 'overall' impedance is never given by AG as far as I know (could be a lot lower in reality) plus ultimate max volume here was a touch below Ron's expectations. And it was almost all digital!

Blue58

Blue,

Look at the review I enclosed pls , according to the measurements Duo Omega are 10-12 ohm speakers. Binding them to 8 ohm taps is correct, I do the same with my 30 wpc SET. It can play as loud as ARC ref 150 , I checked that at home. And much better BTW.

 

[ddk]

Actually I like Analysis bass for classical, but generally I find that dedicated subs for box speakers produce better quality bass info than the woofer of the speaker itself. With panels and horns because of their speed the subs are limited, if any, and one has to rely on the main speaker. So was just fantasizing.

Not sure what people mean when they talk about panel speed when they require so much current and wattage to come to life, its counter intuitive. I read much of this speed nonsense and subs in the audio rags too and you could always tell that the reviewer either had no idea what he was doing or even understood the concept of using subs properly. Adding subs to full range panels like Analysis, Apogee Diva or Soundlabs is actually very doable and we're both talking about quality natural bass for Classical music.

david

 

[ddk]

I have always maintained that I split this into 3 hobbies: 1. Music 2. Auditioning 3. Building my own system

So there is no hunt. One is the act of figuring out what works for me, what doesn't. Most systems teach you something, either by showing you what you like, or what you don't. Another is the act of buying which follows the learning and is limited by budget and space, both of which improve over the long term. Fyi, I already had panels. Full range horns are not easy to buy

What some forget is the social aspect of this hobby in the pre forum days, visiting other audiophiles was a big part of the whole thing for me and some of those gathering were educational too. I'm much richer from friends like Steve and others visiting than any amount keyboard exchanges. I applaud your deep interest and continuos effort visiting people around the world Ked and what you end up purchasing or not is only your own business.

david

 

[bonzo75]

What some forget is the social aspect of this hobby in the pre forum days, visiting other audiophiles was a big part of the whole thing for me and some of those gathering were educational too. I'm much richer from friends like Steve and others visiting than any amount keyboard exchanges. I applaud your deep interest and continuos effort visiting people around the world Ked and what you end up purchasing or not is only your own business.

david

Actually this is a geeky hobby, so geeking out by learning is a big part of it.

 

[ddk]

Actually this is a geeky hobby, so geeking out by learning is a big part of it.

That's one way to look at it !

david

 

[jdza]

Do you know which Altec or JBL speaker made actually crossed over at 200hz, all the ones I know were at 500hz or 800hz?



Agreed, the images can be holographic but without the exaggerated depth of other types, it can come across as shallow if one isn't used to horns.

david

You mean complete speaker systems? If so, 290,2482 and 2485 were rugged phenolic diaphragm drivers. They were used in anything from Raceway PAs to foghorns. AFAIK none of them were ever used in complete off the shelf boxes.2482 is actually very close to a 375 with a phenolic diapragm and is quite popular in WE/Sato type horns for low mids. 290 was actually recommended to me by the manufacturer as suitable for my use from 200Hz but the 1.5" exit made it unsuitable.

The JBL 2490 was not very popular but was specifically designed to be used as a low mid driver in the 5674 cinema loudspeaker. It is unique with a Titanium diaphragm, two slit phase plug, low comprsssion and 3" throat and was meant for large cinemas( i.e. LOUD) where it was crossed at 297 Hz.No manufacturer with any intention to survive would recommend any of the above drivers at 200Hz so close to their cutoff in such punishing conditions. However in domestic use with steep crossover slopes they can all do well.

My love affair with the 2490 started a decade ago when I purchased a pair as a stopgap until I could afford twin throated Goto 505 drivers to mach the rest of my Goto setup. 10 Years later the Goto mids are long gone but the humble 2490 soldiers on without a single breakdown.

This is its horn being picked up soon after completion . Note that its mouth is as big as that of the claimed 18Hz Avantgarde basshorn.

 

[zztop7]

Local pickup only.

You mean complete speaker systems? If so, 290,2482 and 2485 were rugged phenolic diaphragm drivers. They were used in anything from Raceway PAs to foghorns. AFAIK none of them were ever used in complete off the shelf boxes.2482 is actually very close to a 375 with a phenolic diapragm and is quite popular in WE/Sato type horns for low mids. 290 was actually recommended to me by the manufacturer as suitable for my use from 200Hz but the 1.5" exit made it unsuitable

I might [???] have some phenolic drivers & associated horns; if someone is interested. Local pickup only & make offer after inspection. I would need to search my caves once I knew of interest.
zz.

 

[DaveC]

Horns will image holographically once they are time aligned and in a vertical array.Room treatment is beneficial but totally different areas need to be adressed than the usual.As horns are controlled directivity devices they throw a more focussed soundfield and if correctly aligned will have superb soundstaging but in a limited listening area. The bigger the system the smaller the sweetspot,just like electrostats.

Agreed, a good horn system can image incredibly well, the lack of early reflections can allow the room boundaries to sonically disappear and the images can seem to come from in front or far behind the speakers.

------

The best AG speakers I've heard are the new Duo Mezzo. Very impressive, far less faults than any of their other speakers imo.

 

[ddk]

You mean complete speaker systems? If so, 290,2482 and 2485 were rugged phenolic diaphragm drivers. They were used in anything from Raceway PAs to foghorns. AFAIK none of them were ever used in complete off the shelf boxes.2482 is actually very close to a 375 with a phenolic diapragm and is quite popular in WE/Sato type horns for low mids. 290 was actually recommended to me by the manufacturer as suitable for my use from 200Hz but the 1.5" exit made it unsuitable.

The JBL 2490 was not very popular but was specifically designed to be used as a low mid driver in the 5674 cinema loudspeaker. It is unique with a Titanium diaphragm, two slit phase plug, low comprsssion and 3" throat and was meant for large cinemas( i.e. LOUD) where it was crossed at 297 Hz.No manufacturer with any intention to survive would recommend any of the above drivers at 200Hz so close to their cutoff in such punishing conditions. However in domestic use with steep crossover slopes they can all do well.

My love affair with the 2490 started a decade ago when I purchased a pair as a stopgap until I could afford twin throated Goto 505 drivers to mach the rest of my Goto setup. 10 Years later the Goto mids are long gone but the humble 2490 soldiers on without a single breakdown.

This is its horn being picked up soon after completion . Note that its mouth is as big as that of the claimed 18Hz Avantgarde basshorn.

View attachment 23267

That's some horn!!! Do you have a matching one?

They didn't need bass for PA systems, 200hz was more than adequate, aside from the large WEs I don't know of any complete speaker system that crossed over their horns below 500hz. Many of those old woofers were actually full range drivers, 50hz-2khz efficient, light and fast so integration with the horn wasn't as difficult as it is today. Even JBL who design and manufacture everything don't bother making light efficient cones anymore, hence the latest Everests.

david

 

[spiritofmusic]

I'm very seriously considering AG Trios/Basshorns, or Duos Mezzos, if my proposed house move comes off. Playing around w/a 45x15x10 listening space, no restriction of space behind the horns. Of course, I need to hear the new XD model, w/the improved gel drivers, and the Basshorns (having only heard the Trios w/Subs 231's before). Despite my putting s'staging lower on my list of priorities than other attributes, I am aware of spkrs that have minimal depth of soundfield and don't care for that presentation. I wonder if I'll fall into the Bonzo or Ron camp on this score?

 

[asiufy]

spiritofmusic,

As I said before, the AGs will do depth, provided you give them enough distance from the back wall, and as you said there's no such restriction, you'll have gobs of depth and imaging to die for.
Are you going to place them on the 15 feet side of the room? That's roughly 4.5m. Definitely not enough for Trios and their basshorns, unfortunately... But it's enough to get the Duo Mezzos singing. I believe that's roughly the width of the room we had at Newport...

 

[spiritofmusic]

spiritofmusic,

As I said before, the AGs will do depth, provided you give them enough distance from the back wall, and as you said there's no such restriction, you'll have gobs of depth and imaging to die for.
Are you going to place them on the 15 feet side of the room? That's roughly 4.5m. Definitely not enough for Trios and their basshorns, unfortunately... But it's enough to get the Duo Mezzos singing. I believe that's roughly the width of the room we had at Newport...

This is a work in progress (I don't own the house yet!), but I was under the impression that 13' apart furthest extent of outside of horns would be tight yet workable for the Trios. I wouldn't have to put the Basshorns centrally, they could go to the outside of the Trios. That would give me 7' btwn the inner surfaces of the big lwr mid/uppr bass horn, 8' btwn the inner surfaces of the mids horns, and in effect 10' btwn centre line of mids/lwr mids-uppr bass drivers. Possible?
(My Zus are placed 9' btwn centre line of drivers).