Ron, I am not sure whether I have misread your post, but that autoformer is readily avaliable : http://zeroimpedance.com
Of course, Graz's transformer should be much better
Visit to Henk van der Hoeven -- Apogee Acoustics Re-builder/Restorer
- Thread starter Ron Resnick
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Ron, I am not sure whether I have misread your post, but that autoformer is readily avaliable : http://zeroimpedance.com
Of course, Graz's transformer should be much better
A properly considered/designed transformer is a good option here
Do you sell the the Full Range midrange driver transformer when the re-builders want to replace the original transformer?
Macr - my approach once speakers bought. If they ever do get bought, that is
Hold bake offs, where people will readily bring some very nice amps for an opportunity to hear your Apogees. That way, amp trials are free. And you'll meet some fellow lunatics on the way....
The other approach is constant amp swapping via ebay 2nd hand purchases, at usually very little loss.
Don't dump masses on amps until you have tried a few. Trying to get it right first time probably not a good idea...
Hold bake offs, where people will readily bring some very nice amps for an opportunity to hear your Apogees. That way, amp trials are free. And you'll meet some fellow lunatics on the way....
The other approach is constant amp swapping via ebay 2nd hand purchases, at usually very little loss.
Don't dump masses on amps until you have tried a few. Trying to get it right first time probably not a good idea...
Graz - APOGEE ACOUSTICS
Active Member
FR's don't turn up very often here to play with, and the Installers that get them most often can (and do) get well made transformers that outperform the originals by a considerable margin. Autoformers, imho typical current available types are not ideally suited to the task with the FR or Scintilla. Either are well able to show their incompatibility.
When I did the Definitives I was looking at all options and all ideas at the time (2003/4) to make the best possible Apogee concept planar and assess it's viability. Part of that was a mad concept interface for ribbons that exceeded a transformer, something that bucked the trend. Making batches of these for people with FR's (scarce) is a bad idea as few would be interested statistically. Such interfaces really need to be batch produced, and as they incorporate unusual technology are best suited to new product.
Hindsight is a great thing, and at some point in the future there will be a larger real Apogee, incorporating all that I have learned along the way since the leap-of-faith Definitive speaker I have learned so much from. Certainly not a production design. But not right now...
Justin's angle on bake-offs is spot on. Essentially as "audiophiles" (hate that word and tag!) we generally connect with speakers, and then are tasked with matching amplifiers to them. The opposite of the 1980's Linn edict
Graz, do you have any crossover components you like, for the Duetta Sigs? Any preferences between Obbligato, Mundorf Supreme (both of which Henk likes), Jupiter, etc?
Also any resistors you have played with like Vishay and others?
I know Duelunds is quite expensive
Also any resistors you have played with like Vishay and others?
I know Duelunds is quite expensive
Probably the best choice for tube users would be working with the amplifier manufacturer to have a lower impedance secondary winding made in the transformer, matching the impedance of the ribbon - connecting an output transformer to an auto transformer seems a non sense.
Hi
There is a great amount of subjectivity and preferences in this hobby and by no means one should even try to impose one views on others.. This being a discussion forum allow me to inject this..
Is it just me of don't you think the idea of a transformer in line with another transformer is not the best thing in term of signal integrity ... I mean! There you have tubes which would prefer high impedance loads having to deal with the relative low impedance of most speakers, thus the quasi-universal use of transformers ( I know there are OTL) to be followed by another transformer that one in the speaker? Really... WHy Bother? Isn't it trying to fit a square peg in a round hole? With enough hammer strikes eventually these would fit but at what cost?
The reality is : Low impedance and sensitivity speakers (Most Apogees) require High power and low output impedance amplifiers. Most (if not all ) tubes don't qualify, they be high power but low impedance output is not tubes forte.. SS amps output impedance OTOH routinely are routinely below 1/10 of an ohm ....
I had promised to not get back but ... Come on!!!
There is a great amount of subjectivity and preferences in this hobby and by no means one should even try to impose one views on others.. This being a discussion forum allow me to inject this..
Is it just me of don't you think the idea of a transformer in line with another transformer is not the best thing in term of signal integrity ... I mean! There you have tubes which would prefer high impedance loads having to deal with the relative low impedance of most speakers, thus the quasi-universal use of transformers ( I know there are OTL) to be followed by another transformer that one in the speaker? Really... WHy Bother? Isn't it trying to fit a square peg in a round hole? With enough hammer strikes eventually these would fit but at what cost?
The reality is : Low impedance and sensitivity speakers (Most Apogees) require High power and low output impedance amplifiers. Most (if not all ) tubes don't qualify, they be high power but low impedance output is not tubes forte.. SS amps output impedance OTOH routinely are routinely below 1/10 of an ohm ....
I had promised to not get back but ... Come on!!!
( ...) The reality is : Low impedance and sensitivity speakers (Most Apogees) require High power and low output impedance amplifiers. Most (if not all ) tubes don't qualify, they be high power but low impedance output is not tubes forte.. SS amps output impedance OTOH routinely are routinely below 1/10 of an ohm ....
I had promised to not get back but ... Come on!!!
Frantz,
It is not a question of output impedance, it is a question of supplying high current into a low impedance. Apogees are almost resistive loads, very low output impedance is not the critical parameter. Most of the high current amplifiers we can think about are optimized for 4-8 ohm loads - and this implies relatively high voltage power supplies for supplying a few volts - something that also seems unreasonable for an engineer ...
In electrical terms even a SS amplifier can use an autotransformer to match the impedance - McIntosh have been doing it in SS amplifiers since long. But you have a point - audiophiles always dream about the big Krell's driving low impedance ribbons or welding wires ...
Graz - APOGEE ACOUSTICS
Active Member
Caps are really a matter of personal preference. Resistors - again pp, we make our own here at 2 levels, serious, insane! Inductors - nobody makes them how I like them so again, they are are made in house to a formula that involved much research and investment in custom cnc equipment.
Crossovers are a fine art and can take a long time to refine, as parts are expensive, effects are cumulative and run-in time typically 300+ hours each time you change them. Comparisons to chart and assess part contributions can literally take several years for meaningful results to emerge. And unfortunately there are watchful (commercial) eyes looking for free education to circumvent such investments for shortcuts to commercial results...
Ok guys, can we go down a different avenue
Crossovers, active and passive
For Divas ownership I am being recommended to go active bi amping, powerful SS or hybrid to bass ribbons, stick with my triodes for mids and treble ribbons
This will necessitate an external crossover. Before the chat goes onto FR crossover requirements, can we run thru what I'm going to need for Divas bi amped?
Pass Labs XRV1, First Watt F4, and Apogee DAX are the only names I know
Henk mentioned going active Pass Labs alongside a custom passive crossover just for the mids/treble ribbons
I'm totally in the dark over this
Crossovers, active and passive
For Divas ownership I am being recommended to go active bi amping, powerful SS or hybrid to bass ribbons, stick with my triodes for mids and treble ribbons
This will necessitate an external crossover. Before the chat goes onto FR crossover requirements, can we run thru what I'm going to need for Divas bi amped?
Pass Labs XRV1, First Watt F4, and Apogee DAX are the only names I know
Henk mentioned going active Pass Labs alongside a custom passive crossover just for the mids/treble ribbons
I'm totally in the dark over this
Here's an interesting article by someone who's actually gone down the path of acquiring modified Apogees instead of theorizing and had the opportunity to compare them to the originals.
http://www.stereotimes.com/post/apogee-acoustics-diva/
david
http://www.stereotimes.com/post/apogee-acoustics-diva/
david
Spirit, I've had some experience with the Apogee Dax... First with the stock one that came with my mini grands.. I used it to bi-amp the dynamic woofers, woofer panels, and mid/ tweeters. It was my first experience with it and was a learning curve indeed. I realized later, though not initially too much, that transparency was being compromised but it was educational. I've also used the "big" original Dax (1 or 2?) with the digital readout while bi amping my original Duetta Sigs but I had it completely rebuilt by my service tech ( quite a feet he told me) and its transparency factor was fantastic...
Yes, other options are Pass XVR1 ( the king of crossovers) avail in 2way or 3way) and the First Watt B4 avail only in 2 way..I have tried a variety of amp combinations including SS bottom/ tube top as well as Tube top and bottom and tube full range with passives...with more " educational results". I have fimally ended up now with [ a very beefy ] tube amp running top and bottom with TSW passives as previouly described by Ked.
Yes, other options are Pass XVR1 ( the king of crossovers) avail in 2way or 3way) and the First Watt B4 avail only in 2 way..I have tried a variety of amp combinations including SS bottom/ tube top as well as Tube top and bottom and tube full range with passives...with more " educational results". I have fimally ended up now with [ a very beefy ] tube amp running top and bottom with TSW passives as previouly described by Ked.
Lissnr, your insights along with others, will help me gain confidence on my baby steps in the Apogee universe
Can you set out a simple chain/schematic for running
SOURCES/PREAMP/TRIODE MONOS FOR MIDS AND TREBLE RIBBONS/STEREO AMP FOR BASS RIBBONS/DIVAS/XVR1 or F4 ACTIVE CROSSOVERS
assuming I'm going active bi sampling
(feel free to PM me if you'd prefer)
Henk is talking about running the XVR1 and a passive crossover for the mids/treble ribbons
I'm really lost at this point
Can you set out a simple chain/schematic for running
SOURCES/PREAMP/TRIODE MONOS FOR MIDS AND TREBLE RIBBONS/STEREO AMP FOR BASS RIBBONS/DIVAS/XVR1 or F4 ACTIVE CROSSOVERS
assuming I'm going active bi sampling
(feel free to PM me if you'd prefer)
Henk is talking about running the XVR1 and a passive crossover for the mids/treble ribbons
I'm really lost at this point
Dave, these reviews are the main resource of published real world ownership of Apogees that I can find
Lissnr too had original Duettas, then modded, Justin had modded, then heavily modded, and on the Gon and Apogee forum you will find some that sent their originals for mods. Christian's is an interesting blog that he updates it over the years thinking out loud, and that for quite a while he struggles with Divas as compared to Duettas (both his and 3 other systems he has heard) until he gets it right.
Well in that one it goes to show you that its not all rosy and that there are tradeoffs with modified crossovers, people are voicing them according to their systems and preferences and its not always as neutral as one might think. Lissnr is as absolutely right about the DAX, I had it and ended up selling it.
david
Crossovers come in an external box. So it can be changed really or even mailed back for change. I actually would love to experiment. That said, the other thing is to buy the apogee after listening to it. As you know I wasn't an apogeephile despite having it heard it over two years, until recently, and I would not buy many that I have heard, only some.
The same goes for the analysis, that is both the plus and minus of buying something modded. I guess similar to a lenco or Garrard
The same goes for the analysis, that is both the plus and minus of buying something modded. I guess similar to a lenco or Garrard
Spirit. It's a little intimidating when you first begin studying the options and can as such also seem bewildering but there's logic in it by the end... believe me. I think the confusion you're having regarding crossovers/ amps is the choice of whether the 'Apogee of choice' will be tum by a single amp ( stereo or monos) this is traditionally done with passive crossovers and has the advantage of being simple, generally less expensive, of course less complex and historically best at maintaining coherence between drivers.
Duettas and Calipers lend themselves for this. Divas and above do not. They need to be bi-amped. You can use 2 identical amps if you'd like, this is most likely assurance of that good coherence. One amp doue woofer panels alone and [ unlike Durttas which use only 2 drivets per channel ( woofer and a combination mid/ tweetet), the Diva uses 3 drivers... This means thr other amp will feed into the Diva's passive crossover where the signal is split properly to both drivers ( mid and tweeter) for their proper frequencies...
An active crossover if it's a "2 way" (Pass XVR1 is available as a 2way OR as a 3 way)...will send the woofer amp to the woofers but the mid/ tweet info will be sent to the Divas passive-for-the -mid-tweeter split only task.
An XVR1 in 3 way guise will therefore remove the need for the Diva's passive but also rewuire the addition of a 3rd dedicated amp. Mixing and matching amps per their tasks ( which driver(s) they will feef is part of the challenge/ fun/excitement/ frustration / and credit card chatged of the " hobby".
Duettas and Calipers lend themselves for this. Divas and above do not. They need to be bi-amped. You can use 2 identical amps if you'd like, this is most likely assurance of that good coherence. One amp doue woofer panels alone and [ unlike Durttas which use only 2 drivets per channel ( woofer and a combination mid/ tweetet), the Diva uses 3 drivers... This means thr other amp will feed into the Diva's passive crossover where the signal is split properly to both drivers ( mid and tweeter) for their proper frequencies...
An active crossover if it's a "2 way" (Pass XVR1 is available as a 2way OR as a 3 way)...will send the woofer amp to the woofers but the mid/ tweet info will be sent to the Divas passive-for-the -mid-tweeter split only task.
An XVR1 in 3 way guise will therefore remove the need for the Diva's passive but also rewuire the addition of a 3rd dedicated amp. Mixing and matching amps per their tasks ( which driver(s) they will feef is part of the challenge/ fun/excitement/ frustration / and credit card chatged of the " hobby".
Lissnr, that's pretty simple
I've sent you a long and winding PM, maybe we can converse offline occasionally?
So, preamp sends signal to 2 way XRV1 which then sends signal to bass ribbons amp and another signal to passive box which splits signal to mids and treble ribbons?
I've never seen a system running active and passive crossovers
Happy not to go to a third amp, so this will do me fine
Are you familiar with First Watt F4? It's a purely 2 way active crossover, and apparently has a simpler operation than the Pass Labs
I've sent you a long and winding PM, maybe we can converse offline occasionally?
So, preamp sends signal to 2 way XRV1 which then sends signal to bass ribbons amp and another signal to passive box which splits signal to mids and treble ribbons?
I've never seen a system running active and passive crossovers
Happy not to go to a third amp, so this will do me fine
Are you familiar with First Watt F4? It's a purely 2 way active crossover, and apparently has a simpler operation than the Pass Labs
Spirit, in truth I actually ran the Apogee Dax with the Diva but I think that's how I remembet it...: bi-amp with woofer amp and mid/ tweeter amp through a passive if you're using a 2 way active into the woofer. Can someone confirm my "facts" please on this if I'm mistaken.. Thanks.
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