Visit to Henk van der Hoeven -- Apogee Acoustics Re-builder/Restorer

[spiritofmusic]

Lissnr, I'm getting the crossover thing now
My biggest caveat on the Divas is what I'm reading on the official Apogee Forum Board
Namely that guys cannot drive their Divas and FRs bass ribbons with enough power, many aspiring to Krell 300W and even 750W behemoths
Michael adamant bi amping needing to be the same character of amp eg Krell 350 to mids/treble ribbons, 750 to bass ribbons
My instinct is that these guys are spot on, why would so many users go in this direction if it wasn't optimal?
It seems any shortchanging of power and especially current/damping factor to these Divas and FRs bass ribbons will lead to the whole sound not gelling and sagging in the bottom
Not a pretty sight/sound

 

[ddk]

Spirit, in truth I actually ran the Apogee Dax with the Diva but I think that's how I remembet it...: bi-amp with woofer amp and mid/ tweeter amp through a passive if you're using a 2 way active into the woofer. Can someone confirm my "facts" please on this if I'm mistaken.. Thanks.

The passive crossovers where modified for DAX use bypassing internal parts, you had to go active full range with the DAX was designed. This is true for any speaker when you're going active with a full range which is different from adding a sub that you can get away with only a low pass filter.






This thread is going in circles and getting nowhere, this is my last comment here take it for what it is from someone who lived with Apogees for over a decade and tried many different amps;

1- Apogees are power hungry and have a very nasty impedance curve. You need at least one pair of high current amps like Lamm M2.2 or ideally even two pairs for best results.

2- You can get away with one or two pairs of high powered tube amp, i.e. 300w+ but no real dynamics in relation to what they're really capable of.

3- SETs, dream on! So called high powered SETs like NATs and Wavacs become very nonlinear when pushed.

4- Use the same amp when bi-amping Apogees, mixing tubes & ss on the same speaker is a very bad idea. It like mixing

her top



with her bottom



and this guy's hand for crossover playing with all the parts !



david

 

[spiritofmusic]

David, kind of illuminating I guess LOL
I've always been aware of the demanding and uncompromising nature of Apogees
And like you but on a different personal journey I've arrived at my own "Joy Of SETs"
A combination of falling head over heels with high efficiency Zu speakers and the inevitable destiny with SETs
But the almost religious devotion Apogee acolytes show to their speakers are keeping open the possibility I might stray
And my posts here are just thought experiments testing the water

 

[ddk]

David, kind of illuminating I guess LOL
I've always been aware of the demanding and uncompromising nature of Apogees
And like you but on a different personal journey I've arrived at my own "Joy Of SETs" ?
A combination of falling head over heels with high efficiency Zu speakers and the inevitable destiny with SETs
But the almost religious devotion Apogee acolytes show to their speakers are keeping open the possibility I might stray
And my posts here are just thought experiments testing the water

Marc,

What you have with your ZU and active bass is still somewhat like this,



you're much better off looking for efficient speakers and driving them full range with your NATs and the total package.





david

 

[Lissnr]

David, I'm enjoying your visual analogies .. The dominant subject matter has classic lines, beautiful curves and demands incredible levels of attention and dedication to bring out and fully appreciate their stunning talents... What a perfect parallel to our Apogees!

 

[FrantzM]

The passive crossovers where modified for DAX use bypassing internal parts, you had to go active full range with the DAX was designed. This is true for any speaker when you're going active with a full range which is different from adding a sub that you can get away with only a low pass filter.


This thread is going in circles and getting nowhere, this is my last comment here take it for what it is from someone who lived with Apogees for over a decade and tried many different amps;

1- Apogees are power hungry and have a very nasty impedance curve. You need at least one pair of high current amps like Lamm M2.2 or ideally even two pairs for best results.

2- You can get away with one or two pairs of high powered tube amp, i.e. 300w+ but no real dynamics in relation to what they're really capable of.

3- SETs, dream on! So called high powered SETs like NATs and Wavacs become very nonlinear when pushed.

4- Use the same amp when bi-amping Apogees, mixing tubes & ss on the same speaker is a very bad idea. It like mixing

[<snip>

david

What the man says.. I hope this closes the subject ...

 

[Lissnr]

Spirit, David's list is essentially .. completely correct. TSW favors Pass for SS and I know he's used Audio Research in the past for tubes. Consider that thekong is using rebuilt FR's and wants to power them [fittingly] he is using a superb combination of gorgeous sounding all SS amps: tri-amping with GOBBBS of Pass Amps: x600.5's for bass panels then a Pass x350.5 for the mids and another one for the tweeters! This is well over 1200wpc into 8 ohms and essentially almost 2500 wpc into 4 ohms! You simply can't beat that degree of SS power..
To compare that with tubes you'd need VTL Wotans ( two pairs ) or TRL GT 800's and 2 pairs of TRL GT 400's... Just to name a couple....
Would I love to compare that Pass system to either of the tube systems sonically? What a fascinating study that would be but let's get real..I suspect each would have their respective virtues and keep your electric meter spinning like a pinwheel but the ' practicality' aspect goes hands down to the SS. Ironically the fellow in Texas has that exact TRL set up into his FR's too... I'd love to visit!
Anyway: with SS this good these days that all Pass rig will be a winner but I wouldn't necessarily give up on finding a great SS for the woofers (yes, 300+ per channel)...for Divas or FR's... And the magic of tubes that could happily co-habitate on mids and tweeters must be out there ( best if they are both same brand and tubes...)
Duettas are a much easier story. Their woofers appreciate brute power but can still sound superb run with one high powered tube amp alone...No bi-amping necessary..thougj you could but make them identical). I know this because I'm speaking from personal experience.
Apogees ... Feed em right...they're magical... feed em wrong and their a lot of 'indigestion'. LOL

 

[spiritofmusic]

David, my Zus are full range 40Hz-11kHz with Radian tweeters above, and are 101dB eff/8Ohms in this range. What's not to like with SETs? The Hypex Class D subs run purely below 40Hz
Even AG Trios/Cesarro Liszts run their Basshorns with Class D, and as high as 100Hz
Zus are an exemplary choice for SETs

 

[ddk]

David, my Zus are full range 40Hz-11kHz with Radian tweeters above, and are 101dB eff/8Ohms in this range. What's not to like with SETs? The Hypex Class D subs run purely below 40Hz
Even AG Trios/Cesarro Liszts run their Basshorns with Class D, and as high as 100Hz
Zus are an exemplary choice for SETs

Like the picture you're always stuck with two species with these speakers, that's the problem. You have some pretty bits but there's always that other thing there wether you want it or not; Class D, Donkey !

Now look at the total package on her own...

david

 

[bonzo75]

The problem is once you hear a good apogee, other speakers sound like this - a different coloured driver at the top, something else at the bottom, and you can't really predict what will shoot out from the middle - nothing to do with what is fed in.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Correct me if I'm wrong guys
Dave, you run subs to supplement your Bionors, are they SET powered?
Ked, you really like the AG Trios, but the Basshorns which kick in from c.110 Hz to 20 are Class D, I don't recall any criticism from you on that concept when you extolled their virtues
At least the Zus are SET all the way from 20kHz down to 40Hz, only relying on Class D to fill out subs duties below 40

I'm by no means giving up on Divas. They may truly be the Real Deal. What I am giving up on is any notion they can truly thrive on SETs, or even high powered push-pull
When I finally hear the Divas at Henk's on high power SS, if what I hear makes the emotional connection that Zus have done, NATs, and the Cesarro Liszts from 4 years ago, and goes well beyond this territory, that I just can't walk away from, then I will make the requisite mental adjustment to decide on Divas and SS, with probably the NAT Magnetostat pre to maintain some tube flavour
Hell, maybe even a Lampi GG or Atlantic, and NAT tubed phono, to achieve tube atmosphere with SS/Apogee synergy

So we have Divas and FRs aficionados running two and three way active setups with megaWatts Pass Labs and Krell amps
Just what other Class A behemoths out there at slightly more affordable pricing are up for consideration? My preference for voicing would be more towards the darker, tone rich Gryphon presentation than uber grippy/sharper Krell

 

[ddk]

Correct me if I'm wrong guys
Dave, you run subs to supplement your Bionors, are they SET powered?

Yes they are, 18 watts otherwise they'd be audible.
David

 

[Zero000]

To throw another spanner in the works, not all Divas were created equal.

"There were 2 versions of the Diva. After 1993 Divas were made to special order only. The later version will have serial numbers starting from 6000, as opposed to from 10000 for the originals. Also stronger magnets were used, which considerably increased the magnetic field strength. This also increased the maximum SPL to 118dB."

Being serial number aware would therefore be prudent.

 

[bonzo75]

Interesting

 

[Zero000]

I need to get out more. I've never heard a Nelson Pass amp I have liked, and am completely perplexed as to why they are held in such high esteem.

Something else that annoys me is the worryingly poor sound on nearly all Apogee YouTube videos. Not exactly a great ad for them.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Okay boys, let's start going around in circles again LOL
What Class A is out there that is
mega Watts, high current, high damping factor?
Preferably on the richer, darker end of the tonal spectrum
And that is even half way affordable?
(I guess Pass Labs, Gryphon, Krell, Vitus, Constellation, don't QUITE fit that last one)

 

[LL21]

Okay boys, let's start going around in circles again LOL
What Class A is out there that is
mega Watts, high current, high damping factor?
Preferably on the richer, darker end of the tonal spectrum
And that is even half way affordable?
(I guess Pass Labs, Gryphon, Krell, Vitus, Constellation, don't QUITE fit that last one)

Gryphon Antileon if you wish for Class A and with treble that is extended/detailed, just perhaps less illuminated than Colosseum. The Colosseum is 160 watts Class A into 8 ohms, then manufacture specs are doubling all the way down to 0.5ohms and doubling again on peaks...so 2,560 watts into 0.5ohms and 5,120 watts peak. You can find 2nd hand Antileons that cost significantly less than retail.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Interesting Lloyd, the Antileon is the very amp Audiophile Bill recommended, giving the dual attributes of SS grip and power with tube like tonality
Hmm, what price s/h gets me a brace of them for bi amping?

 

[Zero000]

The original Apogee - Klangfilm Blatthaller from the 1920s.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ked is quite the aficionado of vintage gear eg WE horns
This should be right up his alley
And max WAF too